nyc transit strike
- Thread starter petergunn
- Start date
doesn't seem calculated to win the sympathy and support of the public, does it?
and in general, people have less sympathy for transit workers on strike than any others
at the same time, i'd like to see more strikes and boycotts by workers -- and certainly transit workers are well positioned to shake things up -- i.e., their jobs are non-exportable and the service they provide is of the utmost necessity -- so they've got the authorities by the balls
(of course, i'm skeptical of whether the transit strike is motivated by class consciousness and desire for greater justice, or simply by narrow self-interested knowledge of their leverage over everybody else -- i.e., it's probably a raw grab for money and pension plans in a world where all other workers suffer)
and in general, people have less sympathy for transit workers on strike than any others
at the same time, i'd like to see more strikes and boycotts by workers -- and certainly transit workers are well positioned to shake things up -- i.e., their jobs are non-exportable and the service they provide is of the utmost necessity -- so they've got the authorities by the balls
(of course, i'm skeptical of whether the transit strike is motivated by class consciousness and desire for greater justice, or simply by narrow self-interested knowledge of their leverage over everybody else -- i.e., it's probably a raw grab for money and pension plans in a world where all other workers suffer)
Leo
Well-known member
while perhaps not outright supporting strikers, many people i know are more *against* the mta. the perception is chronic mismanagement, you never know what's next or if you can trust anything they say...first they are broke and have to raise fares, then they suddenly discover huge windfall profits and offer to give free rides on holiday weekends (probably just a PR stunt to gain goodwill leading up to the strike talks), then they refuse to give workers a slice of those spoils, then they talk about having to raise fares...oy vey.
also, some of the negotiations involve contributions to future pensions that current workers will never see. they are basically asking for better pensions for those who will work there after they've gone.
don't get me wrong, i have plenty of complaints about transit workers, but th enegotiations aren't a black and white issue.
also, some of the negotiations involve contributions to future pensions that current workers will never see. they are basically asking for better pensions for those who will work there after they've gone.
don't get me wrong, i have plenty of complaints about transit workers, but th enegotiations aren't a black and white issue.
bassnation
the abyss
dominic said:
i hear this argument regularly rinsed out in london whenever theres an underground strike.
fact is, if people directed their energy into fighting for better rights (and yes - gasp - forming a union) instead of moaning about other workers doing it, maybe everyone would be better off. its a cliche but if people stood together then those fuckers would find it impossible to isolate and control us. don't believe tthe hype and especially none of the nonsense the papers print when a strike happens.
having said that, i hate being stuck in london when the trains are fucked as much as the next man.
Light Touch
The Pho Eater
The average transit worker in NYC makes $48,000-$55,000.
Transit workers.
No sympathy here.
Transit workers.
No sympathy here.
bassnation
the abyss
Light Touch said:
maybe you should want everyone to move upwards rather than them downwards.
Diggedy Derek
Stray Dog
It's a very similar situation in London, where there was a tube strike this New Year's Eve. One wonders why they didn't do it on the first working day of the year if they wanted to hurt the company rather than the public.
However, the argument about workers getting paid a lot doesn't wash with me (many of the underground staff in London get paid about 28000 UKP I think). Conditions on the staff are by all accounts very harsh- if you're a train driver, your 38 hour week means 38 actual hours behind the wheel, as you can't start your shift until you're almost actually driving. You get lunch break and tea breaks during the day, but apart from that it's hour after hour behind the wheel. The hours are incredibly antisocial, ending in the early hours very often, and the health impact of working underground probably takes a couple of years off your life.
Sure, 28000 UKP isn't a bad wage, but it's hard as hell.
However, the argument about workers getting paid a lot doesn't wash with me (many of the underground staff in London get paid about 28000 UKP I think). Conditions on the staff are by all accounts very harsh- if you're a train driver, your 38 hour week means 38 actual hours behind the wheel, as you can't start your shift until you're almost actually driving. You get lunch break and tea breaks during the day, but apart from that it's hour after hour behind the wheel. The hours are incredibly antisocial, ending in the early hours very often, and the health impact of working underground probably takes a couple of years off your life.
Sure, 28000 UKP isn't a bad wage, but it's hard as hell.
Light Touch
The Pho Eater
bassnation said:
There's always going to be people on the top and on the bottom -- it's a simple mathematical necessity.
Stated differently, any motherfucker can drive a bus. You want to make bank and get great benefits? Go to medical/business/law school.
Light Touch
The Pho Eater
Diggedy Derek said:
Are you serious?
Do you think people are supposed to just go to work and hang out? Work when it's mentally healthy for them?
If you want a cupcake job, you should be paid accordingly. I don't understand why anyone should be paid to just laze their way through a job.
bassnation
the abyss
Light Touch said:
this is a ludicrous statement. everyone deserves decent working conditions and pay and this is reflected in employment law (in the the UK at least). this hardly qualifies as "lazing your way through a job".
regular breaks are especially important for transport workers - they are driving a heavy vehicle and the last thing you want is people zoning out because they are working long long hours. this is not rocket science.
these people are the ones that keep your city running. its totally unappealling to look down your nose at them because you regard their occupation as menial. everyone has a role to play in society.
Light Touch said:
How low the bottom is, however, and how wide the spread is, is a matter of politics. The few on the top are always trying to push the bottom and the middle lower, and the job of everyone else is to push back. No mathematical necessity explains the fact thath the MTA has run a surplus and still cut pensions AND raised fares.
Light Touch said:
Transit workers include subway train drivers, track maintenance workers, mechanics, electricians, as well as bus drivers. Bus driving in new york city - an easy job? are you on crack? seen the state of the roads, the traffic, the constant construction, the potholes, the car accidents, the weather (ice storms anyone), the crowds, the crazy people?
These people have the lives of millions of new yorkers in their hands every day. It's one of the most necessary jobs in the city, they keep the whole place running, as the strike should remind you.
Do you want underpaid, stressed-out workers on double shifts dealing with power outages and track maintenance hundreds of feet underground in tunnels thousands of people go through every day?
even if it wasn't obvious that keeping middle class jobs in NYC is also what keeps the city running financially (where do you think these folks spend their money or pay their taxes? ), I want well-rested, well-paid, secure people in charge of our transit system.
Light Touch said:
Oh yes, because the nation's lives depend on lawyers and business school graduates. they really keep the country going and help people get to work and survive every day. And they spend their money locally What if all the business school graduates or lawyers went on strike? heaven forfend.
meanwhile, doctors have been talking about unionizing, because they are so kicked around by HMOS that they can't do their jobs - and I'll support them when they go on strike too. And the nurses.
Light Touch
The Pho Eater
bassnation said:
It's not about my viewing their work as menial -- it's about my viewing each of them, individually, as not indispensible. My point is that when everyone can do that job, to pay them more money than more skilled jobs is, as you say, 'ludicrous'.
And I'm not suggesting that decent conditions aren't necessary. I just don't think having to work for 8 whole hours constitutes a demanding job.
Light Touch
The Pho Eater
ripley said:
I'll take these a point at a time:
1. Yes, the MTA shouldn't be running surpluses. They should have their funding cut, and correspondingly, taxes should be cut.
2. It's not that bus driving is easy. It's that it's not a skilled job. If you can replace $55,000/yr bus drivers with $45,000/yr bus drivers, why not?
3. WORKING AN 8-HOUR DAY DOES NOT EQUATE TO A DOUBLE-SHIFT OR BEING OVERWORKED. MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DO THIS AND MORE EVERY DAY.
4. While I am myself a law school student, I agree, businesspeople and lawyers are largely worthless human beings, as far as measuring the product of their labor is concerned. They are, however, a necessary element of our society as a whole, and their efforts (and those of the businesses they work for) provide the ONLY incentive for our society to function efficiently. That efficiency provides much of the wealth and standard of living that we are so glad to enjoy.
The thing is, some of you folks will look at my argument and immediately try to go down this elitist path with me, but that's not my perspective at all. I rep hard for people who scratch and claw through life, to provide for themselves and their families, to get ahead, to build a future. The point I'm making is very simple -- if you can pay someone $30,000 to drive a bus for 8 hours, why pay them $50,000? There's no good reason for it. Maybe you think that YOU wouldn't like to do that job, but I can tell you, a lot of people would.
john eden
male pale and stale
Light Touch said:
How about - they should not be running surpluses - fares should be cut?
Light Touch said:
Because you can't replace them. Because actually it is worth keeping the people who have been doing the job for most of their lives on board because of the experience and skills they have developed. And because there is more to life than profit.
Light Touch said:
Working an 8 hour day without a break is actually illegal in the UK. People who reckon tube drivers have an easy job have clearly never talked to one. Millions of people used to work in abject slavery and indeed many still do, but that isn't a useful barometer. And the fact is that we only have even a notional 8 hour working day in the first place because of the trade union movement, but of course we all knew that already I guess...
Light Touch said:
I am not sure that our society does function efficiently, but maybe I live in a different society to you so perhaps shouldn't comment.
Light Touch said:
I don't think many people here will be in a position to pay someone 30k any time soon. There are probably all sorts of reasons for that.
Light Touch said:
Well, why not go the whole hog, get some East Europeans in and pay them $20,000.
Just 4 points
1) Once you graduate and become a lawyer, you'll no doubt be able to afford a nice car, so just bear the bus drivers' union's greed like a temporary cross. It's not their fault if you were born too poor to study AND have a motor
2) I briefly worked for London Transport 10 years ago and while the money was good and you get free travel, the price you pay in antisocial working hours, and being targeted by a sad minority of passengers who think you're a thick no-hoper who should therefore suffer GBH of the earhole cos the bus in front whizzed past the stop, made every penny worth it. In retrospect, I did deserve more - and I was one of the laziest people they ever employed
3) Driving a bus is quite skilled actually, which is why it takes the majority of bus drivers more than one attempt to get their license
4) For everyone, if a strike is on, and getting to work's a problem, simply ring in and tell them you're working from home, or else turn up late and leave early. Try and focus on the positive aspects - "The MTA is taking more active measures to boost my health and fitness than the government's ever done!" - and support your local union activities, all the way.
Light Touch
The Pho Eater
john eden said:
Item by item...
1. Agreed, that's another option.
2. Agreed.
3. Working an 8-hour day with no breaks is illegal in the US, too -- I'm just saying that an 8-hour day, with breaks for lunch and "personal time" (typically 2 15-minute breaks in the US), is not "hard labor".
4. The US is pretty efficient by my estimation. I'm sure some would disagree and others would agree.
5. Yeah, I think musicians are generally not the sort to be paying anyone anything, unless they "break" -- but how many 'musicians' really break? Performers do, that's for sure.
Light Touch
The Pho Eater
martin said:
That's what I was saying -- here, it'd be Asian or Hispanic immigrants. I'm one that is thankful we have hard-working immigrants with high aspirations here in the US -- their entrepeneurism and work ethic is the backbone of lower-class labor.
1. I actually have a nice car, but it's not because I was born rich. I worked hard, balanced my checkbook, paid my bills off, and now, have disposable income. I do like to take transit when it's available, but transit in Baltimore is shitty at best. I love taking the metro into Washington, tho.
2. I think people deal with assholes in every profession. I'm sure I will in the legal profession, tons of them -- should I be compensated for that? I don't think so. I think I should be compensated for the quality of my work and the value of my services (sparing people long jail terms, negotiating contracts favorable, whatever it may be).
3. Comparatively speaking, I'm not sure it takes that much skill.
4. Well, the strike doesn't affect me (I don't live in NYC). But I'm not a fan of the labor movement or unions in general. Certainly useful in enacted much-needed reforms in the past (mining and industry, for instance) but not particularly useful where people are making bank and living comfortable, productive lives. At some point, the benefit is limited, but the cost is great. At that point, my begrudging support for unions evaporates, as in the case of NYC transit workers.
john eden
male pale and stale
Light Touch said:5. Yeah, I think musicians are generally not the sort to be paying anyone anything, unless they "break" -- but how many 'musicians' really break? Performers do, that's for sure.
Heh.
I think this is quite an interesting observation (not that the rest wasn't, but we can't go much further with you agreeing!)
I reckon most people on Dissensus eithert are not musicians, and those that are don't have music as their primary source of income.
Personally I earn roundabout what a London tube driver does, but there is no way I'd want to do their job because the conditions are way worse than mine. The fact that I chose life as an office based charity drone rather than pursuing my "career" as a van driver is also relevant here.
I would hazard a guess that most people here are not bosses simply because most people are not bosses. That, or we've all spent most of our time and money on music rather than amassing capital.