Danish (anti)-Islamic Cartoons
- Thread starter IdleRich
- Start date
Paul Hotflush
techno head
Yeh I watched that. Irritatingly, I found myself agreeing with the UKIP guy...
matt b
Indexing all opinion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4687270.stmIdleRich said:
had a 'discussion' with, amongst others, one of the organisers of ther protests in london. what a nice fella-
discounted the views of 3 other muslims because two of them were women who didn't have their faces covered and the other was a male muslim who didn't have a beard.
when asked why he demands sharia law in the uk he replied (i paraphrase) 'when living in the jungle you don't live like the animals' (terrible metaphor, no?).
he kept talking over people (constantly) and when asked to be quiet and let someone else talk, he kept saying 'but we're having a discussion'.
the other people in the studio just looked shellshocked!
in other news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4687270.stm
borderpolice
Well-known member
Ness Rowlah said:
While i agree that the christian democrates are a force in german politics,
it is not particularly due to their (alleged) religious affiliation. where
does Merkel for example justify any of her particular politics in religious
terms. I don't know anything about norwegian politics.
Ness Rowlah said:
For a start you assume that they do, that it's not just a media strategy.
in any case, what they do in private is irrellevant here, as it's not observable to you or me. (unless you are blair or merkel). Stalin was essentially a trained orthodox priest, yet, i i wouldnt classify his wonderful reign as particularly adhering to what is touted to be christian values.
in any case, you is there a particularly pronounced exchange of personel between the state apparatus and religious bureaucracies?
borderpolice
Well-known member
bassnation said:
Unfortunatly you are right. let's give this slow power grab a snappy name:
what about "bin-ladenisation"?
k-punk
Spectres of Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by k-punk
For instance, the complex reasons why Muslims under-achieve need to be understood and dealt with.
I don't know, I'm not familiar with the research beyond knowing that muslims under-achieve. But 'muslims under-achieve' is not an explanation, it calls for an explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k-punk
If there were a non-religious form of idenfication for the disaffected young, Islamism would not have quite the appeal it does to many young Muslims.
Well, I didn't put my point especially well, but what I meant was that there should be a political, rather than a religious outlet for their disaffection.
Incidentally, I know certain types of Protestantism aren't particularly demanding, but perhaps it's going a little far to say that Christianity is non-religious?
Originally Posted by k-punk
For instance, the complex reasons why Muslims under-achieve need to be understood and dealt with.
I don't know, I'm not familiar with the research beyond knowing that muslims under-achieve. But 'muslims under-achieve' is not an explanation, it calls for an explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k-punk
If there were a non-religious form of idenfication for the disaffected young, Islamism would not have quite the appeal it does to many young Muslims.
Well, I didn't put my point especially well, but what I meant was that there should be a political, rather than a religious outlet for their disaffection.
Incidentally, I know certain types of Protestantism aren't particularly demanding, but perhaps it's going a little far to say that Christianity is non-religious?
bassnation
the abyss
borderpolice said:
yeah thats good - but unfortunately and disproportionally the biggest assault on secular ideals is coming from the christian fundamentalists who are challenging everything from evolution right through to writing angry green-ink style letters to nasa demanding that they postfix every mention of the big bang with the word "theory" as if this somehow levels the playing field for god. (one wonders how this squares with george bushes apparrently new-found obsession with science. what would a science that follows all of the rules in the bible (earth is 6000 years old, etc) produce in terms of useful products?)
got no problem with people having issues with the big bang, ultimately it might be discarded - but i'll be damned if i'm going to give a supernatural entity creating the world from nothing equal space.
thing is, spiritually speaking theres nothing about the big bang theory that disproves god - in fact if i was a fundamentalist i'd be pinning all my hopes on it being true - its so similar to many creation theories that its spooky. isn't it a flawed strategy to pick semantic holes and peddle falseholds about scientifically verifiable facts? surely its better to go with all that and still belive, lot less effort.
anyway, wandering off the point somewhat (little bit drunk, and on a tuesday too!).
we need a word which is applicable across all religions and is suitably catchy.
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borderpolice
Well-known member
bassnation said:
no, better be focussed.call the fundanetal christians taliban, the radical muslims bushits etc. The rhetorical strategy is to get them to have to justify themselves. It is not the secularists who should defend themselves.
bassnation said:
exactly they would find being described as taliban rather hurting.
borderpolice
Well-known member
k-punk said:
sure. but requiring an explanation is trivial. and what's more, one can predict what kind of explanations will be adumbrated by whom. such analyses usually tell more about the analyers then the subject of analysis.
k-punk said:
but the point is that there are, prima facie. i have listed some. there's no shortage of possible alternative tribes.
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geto.blast
snap on rims
my 2 cents:
what a gross debate.. having to choose between "respect" for religion's crazy kinks and some right wing newspaper's right to expression.
i m sitting this one out :]
what a gross debate.. having to choose between "respect" for religion's crazy kinks and some right wing newspaper's right to expression.
i m sitting this one out :]
borderpolice
Well-known member
k-punk said:
rubbish. i didn't say anything to this effect. of course i didn't rule it out as a partial explanation either. religious belief is surely a determining factor in one's setting of educational and professional goals -- max weber has famously exapanded on this, and amish refuse to let their children have higher education. now whether similar explanations would be worhtwhile for Islam I have my doubts, if only because it's such a vast cult with over a billion followers. but the fact remains that the usual explanations: racism, poverty don't apply as other groups seemingly starting out in similar situation have taken different career trajectories.
k-punk said:
I can't say that
saying "there should be a political, rather than a religious outlet for their disaffection." isn't an answer at all, since there are plenty of political outlets. i also don't see in what sense organisations like al-kaida are not political.
Ness Rowlah
Norwegian Wood
Egyptian paper published cartoon in October 2005
Egyptian paper published cartoon in October 2005.
This is quite interesting - the Egyptian paper Al Fager published some of the cartoons in October last year. Among them the "bomb in turban" one. Guess this one will spread like wildfire through the blogosphere and then be picked up by mainstream media tomorrow.
Egyptian paper published cartoon in October 2005.
This is quite interesting - the Egyptian paper Al Fager published some of the cartoons in October last year. Among them the "bomb in turban" one. Guess this one will spread like wildfire through the blogosphere and then be picked up by mainstream media tomorrow.
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&catherine
Well-known member
geto.blast said:
What you say should make the choice clear, then. The position that should be taken is one that is outside of the 'don't let superstitious, primitive Muslims take away my right to slander them!' / 'the West's values are incompatible with Islam' binary.
What this third position would be is a harder thing to say - though I think it certainly involves moving away from depicting this cartoon 'controversy' as one part of an unavoidable clash between the dictates of Islam and the 'enlightened' values of the West. As Mark k-punk points out, this plays right into the hands of both the fundamentalists and the xenophobic Westerners. This third position will not be 'for' Islam or 'against' it - Islam - and indeed, Christianity, Judaism - will be irrelevant to it.
The debate needs restructuring, in other words. We must make other options, and not react against those that are presented by two very distasteful sides!