El-B

[mms]

i never said dubstep is a branch of techno at all. i said that the general aesthetic/milieu/shebang owes quite a lot to techno. the general tenor of the scene and the way people talk about it is much more "intelligent"/producer-oriented, like the way people think of rephlex/warp-type electronica (though are warp even doing anything electronic any more?!) - hardly surprising because a lot of them are the same crowd. i will add that these are not bad people and i'm not being sneery, it's just that i don't happen to like that whole scene very much and never really did. and despite being heavily influenced by dub, basic channel/chain reaction are, beyond all shadow of a doubt, techno labels. if anyone wants to argue that they're not, they will lose. in fact, as far as i can see, the only reason anyone would argue that they aren't is for the sake of it.

Yeah warp do mostly electronicish stuff same as always, its just their one rock band proper maximo park dominate so you don't hear as much about what they do..
I 'm not trying to argue that basic channel, chain reaction aren't techno but they were def a breakaway front and pioneers of something that was explicitly dub/techno, and used dub's processes to make techno though.
The producer thing is a problem if thats not the way you hoped things would go, the only person who kinda breaks from this is kode9 and spaceape, also pressure with warrior queen on the same label (she worked with sunship too) and these to me are essential records, but even back into reggae, people talk about producers when they talk about dubs and dub comps are compiled by producer, maybe thats not literally how they do it in j.a, you'd know more than, me but it's how they've been marketed for a while.
As for dubstep being more intelligent, obviously that's always total nonsense, this intelligent thing seems to me to be something that is created by media to differentiate between strains, (but usually in a sloppy way) which then get's adopted by audiences (who usually feel pretty ashamed over time, )

 

[mms]

one thing that's really interesting about dubstep atm is though its like audio cubism, everything is broken down into hits, colour and space, but within that, it seems that quite a bit of it has got less exciting, it needs to be more 3d for sure.

 

[Logos]

This thread has me listening to old El-B again...his timing and sense of space is superb, just listening to the claves (I think) in 'Amazon' they make the whole tune!

 

[Blackdown]

This thread has me listening to old El-B again...his timing and sense of space is superb

It's just rhythmic perfection: like Timbaland, Premier or Photek. Parody is pointless!

 

[Keith P]

http://www.discogs.com/artist/El-B

 

[the undisputed truth]

one thing that's really interesting about dubstep atm is though its like audio cubism, everything is broken down into hits, colour and space, but within that, it seems that quite a bit of it has got less exciting, it needs to be more 3d for sure.

 

[shudder]

I don't know any of this golden age shit.. i basically only found garage (of any flavour) after the splintering happened (being in north america and not particularly into dance musik at the time..). are there any good comps where I can hear this stuff???

 

[Tim F]

Shudder, old UK garage comps fill up discount bins in CD stores throughout the western world... but these are my favourites:

V/A: Zed Bias - Sound of the Pirates
V/A: Shanks & Bigfoot - Ayia Napa 2000 (trus!)
V/A: The Dreem Teem - In Session II
V/A: Masterstepz - Ayia Napa 2001
V/A: Timmi Magic - Pure Silk: The Third Dimension
V/A: Jason Kaye - Garage Nation
V/A: Andy Lewis - Locked On Unlocked - The True Sound of Two-Step

To pick up on an earlier point, I almost feel like perhaps dubstep would be better off to distance itself from the dub??? To maybe go for a sound that was maybe a mid-point between slowed-down techno and tribal syncopation (perhaps a bit like "Are You Really Lost?" by Matias Aguayo). I'm thinking of that awesome second or third track from Sir Blackdown's Keysound Radio mix, the one with the really minimal bassy drums and the accordion slithers and spacy surround-sound - signifiers of dub yeah, but not huge amounts of dub bass or rasta samples...

 

[milkandhoney]

sorry to be a pain but does anyone have any mixes of el-b/j da flex etc they can upload for me please?

 

[Blackdown]

To pick up on an earlier point, I almost feel like perhaps dubstep would be better off to distance itself from the dub??? To maybe go for a sound that was maybe a mid-point between slowed-down techno and tribal syncopation (perhaps a bit like "Are You Really Lost?" by Matias Aguayo). I'm thinking of that awesome second or third track from Sir Blackdown's Keysound Radio mix, the one with the really minimal bassy drums and the accordion slithers and spacy surround-sound - signifiers of dub yeah, but not huge amounts of dub bass or rasta samples...

enough of the Sir eh Tim? anyway I think you mean Pinch "Qawaali" forthcoming on Planet Mu.

I agree about dub. i prefer 'dub-as-process' or even 'dub-as-instrumental' as a definition, rather than literally dub-reggae. We used some dub vocals on 'submerged,' but that was two years ago and i haven't returned to them since.

 

[mms]

enough of the Sir eh Tim? anyway I think you mean Pinch "Qawaali" forthcoming on Planet Mu.

I agree about dub. i prefer 'dub-as-process' or even 'dub-as-instrumental' as a definition, rather than literally dub-reggae. We used some dub vocals on 'submerged,' but that was two years ago and i haven't returned to them since.

that pinch track really is a winner, it's got that deep propulsive use of drums but an enormous amount of space.

The sampling of Jamaican guys bothers me a bit too, it's almost always unnecessary (again one of the exceptions being Kode9) or just the sampling films - take d1's amazing identity track, incredibly beautiful sakamotoesque melody, but a barely audible sample which kinda ruins it.
I've been working on some tracks with a mate and we kinda want to do dubstep stuff but we wanted to eliminate all the things that bothered us about it. These included spoken samples, reggae samples, two note basslines, simple delays, uninspiring un funky drums, minor two or three note melody sequences. Easy Darkness and that kind of male energy of techstep, which itself is neither that dark or interesting.
Why does dubstep's modes always have to come from reggae anyway, you can hear a much wider inspiration of melody and rhythm in grime (or could)

 

[Blackdown]

having a series of elements you want to define yourself against is pretty useful, as useful sometimes as knowing what elements you want to align yourself with. i look forward to those tracks fella.

 

[shudder]

Shudder, old UK garage comps fill up discount bins in CD stores throughout the western world... but these are my favourites:

hehe... thanks.. i'll check out the bins..

 

[Keith P]

I don't know any of this golden age shit.. i basically only found garage (of any flavour) after the splintering happened (being in north america and not particularly into dance musik at the time..). are there any good comps where I can hear this stuff???

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3356

 

[shudder]

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3356

cool! downloading, will listen later.

 

[Inca March]

I've been working on some tracks with a mate and we kinda want to do dubstep stuff but we wanted to eliminate all the things that bothered us about it. These included spoken samples, reggae samples, two note basslines, simple delays, uninspiring un funky drums, minor two or three note melody sequences. Easy Darkness and that kind of male energy of techstep, which itself is neither that dark or interesting.
Why does dubstep's modes always have to come from reggae anyway, you can hear a much wider inspiration of melody and rhythm in grime (or could)

hit the nail on the head.

 

[bassnation]

I've been working on some tracks with a mate and we kinda want to do dubstep stuff but we wanted to eliminate all the things that bothered us about it. These included spoken samples, reggae samples, two note basslines, simple delays, uninspiring un funky drums, minor two or three note melody sequences. Easy Darkness and that kind of male energy of techstep, which itself is neither that dark or interesting.
Why does dubstep's modes always have to come from reggae anyway, you can hear a much wider inspiration of melody and rhythm in grime (or could)

this sounds interesting, look forward to hearing what you produce, hopefully.

however, i have to say i love reggae samples - loved them in hardcore & jungle and got no problem with them in dubstep too.

in another thread you were bigging up splash "babylon falls" - which falls foul of your criteria as stated above. this is a perfect example of how these things can work well.

and i hate to say this, but the process of stripping away cheesy / hooky elements is a very techno approach. i know a lot of techno heads who can't abide the merest hint of a vocal in a tune. to be perfectly honest i find that boring - not into tastefulness as an end in itself.

if dubstep goes in that direction i'll find something else which more closely embodies the reggae / hardcore vibe.

i'm in agreement about the techstep style tunes though.

 

[bassnation]

Why does dubstep's modes always have to come from reggae anyway, you can hear a much wider inspiration of melody and rhythm in grime (or could)

actually, following on from what you want to avoid with production, i'd find it really interesting to hear what dubstep tracks really do it for you, and why.

 

[stelfox]

and i hate to say this, but the process of stripping away cheesy / hooky elements is a very techno approach. i know a lot of techno heads who can't abide the merest hint of a vocal in a tune. to be perfectly honest i find that boring - not into tastefulness as an end in itself.

thanks marc, this is my point entirely. also interesting how vocals are such a huge problem for techno people. and in this category damn right do i include dubsteppers - however, in this analysis dubsteppers are only "techno" in the same way that both dubsteppers and technoheads both fall under the umbrella of indie. note: i'm not saying the music is the same and never have, just that the ground-level values of these scenes are very similar and very often the people involved have followed this exact musical path. that's what i was talking about re "whitification" - the idea of black influence, most often heard in vocals being cast out or turned into a very distant echo - but as this is such a problematic idea for people (raising such high standards of debate as "you are a twat" etc), let's just call it "gentrification" instead.

 

[bassnation]

thanks marc, this is my point entirely. also interesting how vocals are such a huge problem for techno people. and in this category damn right do i include dubsteppers - however, in this analysis dubsteppers are only "techno" in the same way that both dubsteppers and technoheads both fall under the umbrella of indie.

i think a lot of techno people came through to dance music a different way. the indie thing is totally otm in my opinion.

speaking generally (not directed at you personally marcus) many techno fans skipped handbag house and hardcore - but maybe caught some industrial or old skool indie guitar music.

essentailly if people have missed out the cheese side of things, they won't properly understand dance music.

i hate the idea of restricting whats good to listen to by such arbitary criteria like vocals, pianos etc. i want excitement not restraint.