A counterblaste to misanthropy

[john eden]

so, let me get this right. if i break into my neighbour's house and steal his wife/dinner/stereo, or crap all over his floor, or decide to swing about from the light fittings making grunting noises then that's ok because i used to be an ape?

Have you done this? Surely it says something for the species that this sort of behaviour is the exception rather than the rule?

reductio ad absurdum, i know ... but then so is the whole argument propounded by terence mckenna.

Actually his argument was that we are in the transition point between being apes and being angels, but obviously I was quoting selectively. (Full interview is up at uncarved and probably also over at Dreamflesh in less garish stylee.)

most humans have the mental capacity to act in a manner at least approaching angelic; to strive for perfection even if we can't necessarily achieve it. the tragedy is that for a lot of the time the majority of us don't even try. as individuals we should be attempting to transcend the history of the species, not looking to it for excuses.

Perfectionists always feel let down, though. I live with one, so I know!

I guess my take on this is that things are slowly improving and that this is a good thing, which should be monitored and developed. I'm not going to beat myself up because we haven't transcended all of the bad stuff yet, but I'm not going to use our collective limitations as an excuse, either.

 

[shaun L]

so, let me get this right. if i break into my neighbour's house and steal his wife/dinner/stereo, or crap all over his floor, or decide to swing about from the light fittings making grunting noises then that's ok because i used to be an ape?

this is an unrealistic representation of primate behaviour and completely ignores the biological origins of empathy and socialisation.

it's better to have a low opinion of people because then they don't disappoint you

isn't this a symptom of over identification with the subjective self... why should I care what my opinions are? The opinion forming 'I' is only one part of experience... a rather derived part existing at several removes from my neuro-endocrine core...
All of the important emotional affects issue from this atavistic prehuman source... society should address these needs in an integrated fashion rather than attempt to recode them in a misanthropic remix of plato's republic.

it's about working out what is possible, given certain human-all-too-human constraints (an easily broken body (sigh), the irritating yet blissful desire to sleep and eat and all that).

This is a strong argument for investigating Chi Gong (sp) and allied body-tech... if your physical limitations disappoint you why not investigate what you can change?... this must be more rational/pragmatic than wishing we were all a cross between the Iron Giant and Orac from Blake's 7.


Hmm wonder if this quote thing works out...

 

[grimly fiendish]

Have you done this? Surely it says something for the species that this sort of behaviour is the exception rather than the rule?

but metaphorically it kind-of is the rule. we still lie, we still cheat, we still f*** over our friends for the merest possible gain.

that said: because i'm a pessimist (misanthrope, as johneffay posits, is a little strong) i'm obviously gonna say that. as with all arguments, it's a question of perception. and in most situations (posting on dissensus apart ), our behaviour and responses are surely subconsciously subjective: how could they be anything else?

Actually his argument was that we are in the transition point between being apes and being angels, but obviously I was quoting selectively.

yes, sorry, bit glib of me to dismiss his entire argument based on one paraphrased line. prejudices against mckenna coming out there, i think.

Perfectionists always feel let down, though. I live with one, so I know!

and i am one - at least, my job involves being one - so yes, i'd agree wholeheartedly.

like i said before: i can and frequently do see the good in situations and even people, at least at a micro level. i simply have a terrible prejudice against society/people at large

 

[shaun L]

because i'm a pessimist (misanthrope, as johneffay posits, is a little strong) i'm obviously gonna say that. as with all arguments, it's a question of perception. and in most situations (posting on dissensus apart ), our behaviour and responses are surely subconsciously subjective: how could they be anything else?

this is doesn't justify the negative designation of humanity, most of humanity's control systems use misanthropy as a justification for the creation of misery....
eg Police States treating us all as criminals, Heirophants labelling us abject, godless scum and so on...

Misanthropy and its weaker relative- pessimism about the human condition isn't a subjective/inconsequential epiphenomena, its an important component of social mind control. and since its not much fun.. its even more pernicious than smoking skunk whilst watching countdown

Thats why I object to the bodyhorror of CR... what is the use of liberatory mindtools if they simply reinforce the lies of the 'Man'.
I'm kinda surprised by lack of any real critique of johneffay and john eden's position (thankfully they seem to express these ideas better than I can).

 

[grimly fiendish]

this is doesn't justify the negative designation of humanity, most of humanity's control systems use misanthropy as a justification for the creation of misery....
eg Police States treating us all as criminals, Heirophants labelling us abject, godless scum and so on...

... Misanthropy and its weaker relative- pessimism about the human condition isn't a subjective/inconsequential epiphenomena, its an important component of social mind control.

but what relevance does that have to me (yes, i know, subjective again, but see my previous comments) living in a western market society? i'm not talking about police states: i'm talking about the acts of horrific selfishness committed by unthinking individuals being fed the opposite of misanthropy by the "system": aspiration is all, happiness is within your reach, consumption is the key to happiness.

it seems to me that mindless optimism - buy a car! take a holiday! buy a house! - is the opiate of the masses right now.

I'm kinda surprised by lack of any real critique of johneffay and john eden's position (thankfully they seem to express these ideas better than I can).

what kind of critique do you want? if i dig out some old textbooks i could probably knock up a passable marxist one, but you'll be waiting some time and to be honest time isn't something i have right now (i'm snatching time to reply here in the office between frenzied bouts of work).

fwiw, johneffay's demolition of my argument as not being "philosophically sound" is dead-on: it's not philosophically sound at all, but that's because i'm not actually arguing from any philosophical or even particularly rational point-of-view, simply from a pragmatically pessimistic one. and john eden and i probably agree on far more than we disagree: as he says:

I'm not going to beat myself up because we haven't transcended all of the bad stuff yet, but I'm not going to use our collective limitations as an excuse, either.

the difference is that i *am* going to beat myself up about it. which brings us straight back to the question of subjectivity/perception.

i think i'm gonna sign off now, because i'm running out of things to say: this argument keeps coming back to cold rationalism and that's not something i'm interested in defending because it's not a workable praxis. i'm a pragmatist, that's all, and the easiest way for me to be pragmatic is to adopt a pessimistic - defensive - outlook on life (cf infinite thought, above).

that said, it's been the most enjoyable thread in which i've participated so far! see: no misanthrope i

 

[john eden]

the difference is that i *am* going to beat myself up about it.

'kin perfectionists for you!

LOL.