Descartes' Legacy: The Century of the Self

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Actually, hundredmillionlifetimes was careful to get the nuances right here, as he writes ‘historically’ precisely to exclude the Soviet Union—I think.

The USSR was founded nearly a hundred years ago. I'd call that pretty historic.

While this word is seldom used to describe the U.S.A. of today, for example, it is not inconceivable that it could. For one thing, it depends on how you define ‘regulate’.

I think you're letting him off the hook here. Surely the very definition of a 'neo-liberal' is someone who supports a free market with the minimum of state intervention? Think about that phrase - minimum of state intervention - doesn't sound very 'totalitarian', does it?
Not that it's necessarily the ideal economic/political system for promoting personal freedom, but it's certainly not 'totalitarian', however you look at it.
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Surely the very definition of a 'neo-liberal' is someone who supports a free market with the minimum of state intervention? Think about that phrase - minimum of state intervention - doesn't sound very 'totalitarian', does it?

But it’s how it works in practise that counts. I’m not entirely convinced by the argument, but I think it’s quite easy to grasp.

By the way, since we are judging communism by the actions commited in its name, we should apply that same principle to neo-liberalism. Thus, what neo-liberals claim is less interesting than what they do.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Oh, I certainly wouldn't defend neo-liberalism, I'm well aware of the problems it's caused (more so, since Sunday night) - I'm just saying 'totalitarian' is an inaccurate description for it. Something can be bad without being totalitarian - look at (democratic) Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, for example.

By the way, what do you mean by 'totalizing', tht?
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Oh, I certainly wouldn't defend neo-liberalism, I'm well aware of the problems it's caused (more so, since Sunday night) - I'm just saying 'totalitarian' is an inaccurate description for it. Something can be bad without being totalitarian - look at (democratic) Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, for example.

By the way, what do you mean by 'totalizing', tht?

Yes, I agree. My history teacher viewed authoritarianism and totalitarianism as differing only in how much control the authorities sought to have over the citizens’ personal life. With the latter, they sought total control; with the former, they contented themselves with making sure the citizens didn’t challenge the political status quo. This is a very loose definition, but I find it quite useful.
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
They discussed the usage here:

Thanks to James Chen for pointing out a letter to the editor printed recently in the Washington Post. The writer reprimands the authors for referring to the North Korea government as "authoritarian" in a recent article.

Mr. Chen comments:
"The use of the label "authoritarian" could be an honest error in judgment. But surely, they must have missed fellow WaPo reporter Anne Applebaum's recent commentary on North Korea ("Auschwitz Under Our Noses").

What do you think? Please hit the comments link and share your views.

I agree with the letter. I also winced when I saw their use of the word 'authoritarian'. The difference between 'authoritarianism' and 'totalitarianism' is that under the latter, the government attempts to control not only the actions of its people, but also their thoughts. See rickross.com for a good description of the kind of totalitarianism we see in North Korea..(which is derived from Chinese 'thought reform' methods).
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html
(and MANY other valuable insights into cultic behavior posted on the rickross.com site.)
Some 'highlights' - One must be a member of the group to be seen as worthy of life and life support. (a scarce resource) Those outside the group must be penalized, and ostracized. Membership in the group is something that one must attain through active 'worship', the default is to be an outsider. (To think the wrong thoughts might easily make this behavior nearly impossible, so people control their own thoughts in a sensible attempt at self-preservation.) So the term 'bad thinking' would be a hallmark of a totalitarian regime. And the default would be to be seen 'outside' of the group. Many cults as well as many corporate environments (particularly ones in which a destructive mindset is necessary to profit, I'm thinking of the tobacco industry as described by a friend who used to work in the Philip Morris advertising agency) as well as even elements of our own society - (look at the right's coordinated attempts at character assasination of critics through the media - the so-called 'attack dogs' that they are able to mobilize so effectively!) are like this, and so are totalitarian governments. Also, the mindset of the nuclear weapons industry is by necessity fairly cultlike..a cult of death. (At least it used to be, as documented very skillfully by Robert J. Lifton in his book "The Genocidal Mentality" - which should be required reading for anyone studying North Korea)

Indeed, in totalitarian countries like North Korea, China under Mao - and even today, and Stalinist Russia, one could be imprisoned not just for one did, but for something one said or did not do..or if they could ascertain it, even thought.

Many societies, including our own, show elements of totalitarian behavior from time to time. This is not new, but it should make us nervous because a society that practices totalism is a society prone to over-rigid thinking, and thereby, by definition, if not already, soon to be a society in decline. [...]
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I want to read what's on that that NKZone website but it's making my eyes bleed. :(

Intersting stuff. I'd certainly say that both the Bush and Blair administrations have authoritarian tendencies; the attempts to introduce ID cards and the new passport legislation are just some of the most recent examples. But I'd say we're a long way from anything like actual totalitarianism - the very fact we can sit here and have this conversation without fear of an ominous knock at the door at 5 a.m. is proof of that, I think.

In fact is pisses me off no end when people use terms like 'totalitarian' and 'fascist' to describe regimes like those in the US and UK at the moment - sure, they have their faults and then some, but using terms like that just makes one look hysterical and childish, not to mention being frankly insulting to the people who've been oppressed by states that genuinely deserve descriptions like that, in the past or currently.
 
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Anyway, what you're saying is that the Soviet economy was strong and sustainable and that it could have continued along its merry way indefinitely had Gorbachov not betrayed it to the forces of neo-liberalism?

No, what I said was that its collapse was due to the political, not the economic.


The USSR was a totalitarian dictatorship and it represents the exact opposite of everything I understand about freedom and liberty...

From The Two Totalitarianisms [Slavoj Zizek, LRB: Vol. 27 No. 6 dated 17 March 2005]:

It is here that one has to make a choice. The ‘pure’ liberal attitude towards Leftist and Rightist ‘totalitarianism’ – that they are both bad, based on the intolerance of political and other differences, the rejection of democratic and humanist values etc – is a priori false. It is necessary to take sides and proclaim Fascism fundamentally ‘worse’ than Communism. The alternative, the notion that it is even possible to compare rationally the two totalitarianisms, tends to produce the conclusion – explicit or implicit – that Fascism was the lesser evil, an understandable reaction to the Communist threat. When, in September 2003, Silvio Berlusconi provoked a violent outcry with his observation that Mussolini, unlike Hitler, Stalin or Saddam Hussein, never killed anyone, the true scandal was that, far from being an expression of Berlusconi’s idiosyncrasy, his statement was part of an ongoing project to change the terms of a postwar European identity hitherto based on anti-Fascist unity. That is the proper context in which to understand the European conservatives’ call for the prohibition of Communist symbols.​

And, on the distinction between “formal” and “actual” freedom and liberty, where “formal” freedom is the freedom of choice WITHIN the coordinates of the existing power relations, while “actual” freedom designates the site of an intervention which undermines these very coordinates:

Let us take the situation in the Eastern European countries around 1990, when Really Existing Socialism was falling apart: all of a sudden, people were thrown into a situation of the “freedom of political choice” — however, were they REALLY at any point asked the fundamental question of what kind of new order they actually wanted? Is it not that they found themselves in the exact situation of the subject-victim of a Beauvois experiment? They were first told that they were entering the promised land of political freedom; then, soon afterwards, they were informed that this freedom involved wild privatization, the dismantling of the system of social security, etc. etc. — they still have the freedom to choose, so if they want, they can step out; but, no, our heroic Eastern Europeans didn’t want to disappoint their Western mentors, they stoically persisted in the choice they never made, convincing themselves that they should behave as mature subjects who are aware that freedom has its price … This is why the notion of the psychological subject endowed with natural propensities, who has to realize its true Self and its potentials, and who is, consequently, ultimately responsible for his failure or success, is the key ingredient of liberal freedom. And here one should risk reintroducing the Leninist opposition of “formal” and “actual” freedom: in an act of actual freedom, one dares precisely to BREAK the seductive power of symbolic efficiency. Therein resides the moment of truth of Lenin’s acerbic retort to his Menshevik critics: the truly free choice is a choice in which I do not merely choose between two or more options WITHIN a pre-given set of coordinates, but I choose to change this set of coordinates itself The catch of the “transition” from Really Existing Socialism to capitalism was that people never had the chance to choose the ad quem of this transition — all of a sudden, they were (almost literally) “thrown” into a new situation in which they were presented with a new set of given choices (pure liberalism, nationalist conservatism … ). What this means is that the “actual freedom” as the act of consciously changing this set occurs only when, in the situation of a forced choice, one ACTS AS IF THE CHOICE IS NOT FORCED and “chooses the impossible.”​

RE: Zizek's reference, above, to the subject-victim Beauvois experiment [also interesting, as Beauvois also elaborates on the distinctions between totalitarian-authoritarian-liberal]:

Let us say that an individual is first asked to participate in an experiment that concerns changing eating habits in order to fight against famine; then, after agreeing to do it, at the first encounter in the laboratory, he will be asked to swallow a living worm, with the explicit reminder that, if he finds this act repulsive, he can, of course, say no, since he has the complete freedom to choose. In most cases, he will do it, and then rationalize it by way of saying to himself something like: “What I am asked to do IS disgusting, but I am not a coward, 1 should display some courage and self-control, otherwise scientists will perceive me as a weak person who pulls out at the first minor obstacle! Furthermore, a worm does have a lot of proteins and it could effectively be used to feed the poor; who am 1 to hinder such an important experiment because of my petty sensitivity? And, finally, maybe my disgust of worms is just a prejudice, maybe a worm is not so bad — and would tasting it not be a new and daring experience? What if it will enable me to discover an unexpected, slightly perverse, dimension of myself that 1 was hitherto unaware of?”

Beauvois enumerates three modes of what brings people to accomplish such an act which runs against their perceived propensities and/or interests: authoritarian (the pure command “You should do it because I say so, without questioning it!”, sustained by the reward if the subject does it and the punishment if he does not do it), totalitarian (the reference to some higher Cause or common Good which is larger than the subject’s perceived interest: “You should do it because, even if it is unpleasant, it serves our Nation, Party, Humanity!”), and liberal (the reference to the subject’s inner nature itself. “What is asked of you may appear repulsive, but look deep into yourself and you will discover that it’s in your true nature to do it, you will find it attractive, you will become aware of new, unexpected, dimensions of your personality!”).

[ ... ]

The three ways of legitimizing the exercise of authority (“authoritarian,” “totalitarian,” “liberal”) are nothing but three ways of covering up, of blinding us to the seductive power of the abyss of this empty call [of the symbolic efficiency of the empty Master Signifier]. In a way, liberalism is here even the worst of the three, since it NATURALIZES the reasons for obedience into the subject’s internal psychological structure. So the paradox is that “liberal” subjects are in a way those least free: they change the very opinion/perception of themselves, accepting what was IMPOSED on them as originating in their “nature” — they are even no longer AWARE of their subordination.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Here we go again - the citizen of the liberal democracy merely thinks he is freer than the subject of the fascist/communist/theocratic dictatorship, because of a cunning psychological ruse by the crypto-totalitarian government, etc. etc. etc.

No true liberal would say "You will discover..." anything; he might say "You may discover..." such-and-such, because there is a tradition that has become deeply entrenched in our society that it's good to find things that you're good at, persue them and, as far as possible, find employment that utilises those skills. Of course it doesn't always work out that way because some people are more skilled (or simply lucky) than others and we need far more street sweepers than we do rock stars and footballers, but the principle remains that you can, to a greater extent than most other societies, create the role that you choose to play in society.

Quite what any of this has to do with eating worms I'm not sure. What happened in the former Soviet bloc when neo-'liberal' economics was enforced on them was a (socially) illiberal act because it destabilised their economies which resulted in a huge reduction in personal liberty for most people: hence authoritarian Putin's rise to power. Surely it's not controversial to suggest that a system that maximises liberty for businesses doesn't necessarily maximise liberty for individual people?
 
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vimothy

yurp
Got a bit to read through before I stick my oar in, but can I just ask a question (I think it's important): who do we mean when we say "neo-liberals"?
 

vimothy

yurp
No, what I said was that its collapse was due to the political, not the economic.

Explain yourself then - do you agree that the Soviet economy was a disaster? Why was it a disaster? Had political pressure not been applied by the neo-whoevers, would the USSR still be in existence today? And just out of interest, would you like to have lived in the USSR?
 

vimothy

yurp
Actually, hundredmillionlifetimes was careful to get the nuances right here, as he writes ‘historically’ precisely to exclude the Soviet Union—I think.

I disasgree - and I think that hundredmillionlifetimes writes "historically" because he's trying to suggest that really communism is a humane and rational ideology, but that historically it's unfortunately been rather "authoritarian" and killed a lot of people and all that.

In fact communism has been totalitarian where tried because that's what it is - totalitarian, and there's no need to qualify it by saying that it's only been totalitarian historically, as though there were some glorious communism waiting just around the corner if only we could abondon the "state capitalist" models and try real communism.
 

vimothy

yurp
It is here that one has to make a choice. The ‘pure’ liberal attitude towards Leftist and Rightist ‘totalitarianism’ – that they are both bad, based on the intolerance of political and other differences, the rejection of democratic and humanist values etc – is a priori false. It is necessary to take sides and proclaim Fascism fundamentally ‘worse’ than Communism. The alternative, the notion that it is even possible to compare rationally the two totalitarianisms, tends to produce the conclusion – explicit or implicit – that Fascism was the lesser evil, an understandable reaction to the Communist threat....

I don't believe any of Zizeck's reading of recent history. Communism isn't worse than fascism and it isn't better - they're both the same stupid 20th Century impulse with different haircuts. And I think the typical general conclusion of people comparing the two is the same as Zizeck's - that communism is the lesser and more understandable evil. The man is, IMHO, an idiot.

What are the differences that make communism a "better" totalitarianism than fascism? And are these the differences that sell books and films to a trendy globalised pomo audience, by any chance?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Communism isn't worse than fascism and it isn't better - they're both the same stupid 20th Century impulse with different haircuts.

Exactamundo. Religion says: worship God. Fascism says: worship the Race, the Nation, the Leader. Communism says: worship the People, the Proletariat. Whenever people get caught up in worshipping an abstract entity to the exclusion of all rationality you always get the same result: oppression, dehumanisation, totalitarianism.

What are the differences that make communism a "better" totalitarianism than fascism? And are these the differences that sell books and films to a trendy globalised pomo audience, by any chance?

Heh heh, reminds me of this darling little boutique I saw in Notting Hill that was selling these delightfully ironic-kitsch embroidered cushions decorated with portraits of Chairman Mao. Groovy, baby!
 

vimothy

yurp
Exactamundo. Religion says: worship God. Fascism says: worship the Race, the Nation, the Leader. Communism says: worship the People, the Proletariat. Whenever people get caught up in worshipping an abstract entity to the exclusion of all rationality you always get the same result: oppression, dehumanisation, totalitarianism.

Paul Berman's Terror and Liberalism is great for tracing this nihilistic impulse back through European history, examining what separates the totalitarian from the authoritarian - an important distinction to make - and considering its rising appeal.

"The true saint is he who whips and kills the people for the good of the people." (Baudelaire)

Heh heh, reminds me of this darling little boutique I saw in Notting Hill that was selling these delightfully ironic-kitsch embroidered cushions decorated with portraits of Chairman Mao. Groovy, baby!

And you don't get too many embroidered cushions with Hitler's face on!
 

vimothy

yurp
Here is Wikipedia on Totalitarianism (an ok definition, if you ask me):

Quote:
Totalitarianism is a term employed by some political scientists, especially those in the field of comparative politics, to describe modern regimes in which the state regulates nearly every aspect of public and private behavior.
While this word is seldom used to describe the U.S.A. of today, for example, it is not inconceivable that it could. For one thing, it depends on how you define ‘regulate’.

I can draw two possible conclusions from this:
1. You're right: the US government is totalitarian insofar at it interfers with its own internal markets and the choices and decisions of its citizens, i.e. insofar as the US Administration practices anti-(classical)liberal, statist policies it is totalitarian. From your definition of totalitarianism we should be able to see that what is called "neo-liberalism" is the opposite of totalitarianism.
2. You're wrong: the US government does not regulate every aspect of the lives of its citizens, the massive legal framework provides general rules which enable connection and interplay of different groupings and entities, with lots of detail for the specifics. Things happen which happen anyway, the "shadow of the law" simply codifies established norms. This is because the law arises out of a strong social contract - unlike in totalitarian regimes. In any case, there is nothing like a "total" or "totalising" extremist ideology which seeks access to and control over every aspect of society active in the USA today - and it's a bit daft to suggest otherwise.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
And you don't get too many embroidered cushions with Hitler's face on!

Exactly. (And WHY NOT, is what I want to know? I think it'd be quite cool...)

I saw a guy once, in London, wearing a tee-shirt with a picture of Stalin on it. The classic Soviet-propaganda image of him as this benign-yet-mighty father-figure. What a fucking dick. :slanted:
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Vimothy, you misinterpreted Žižek earlier. You should read the whole text to get the context it was written in.

The Two Totalitarianisms

Here is Žižek again:

In 1979, in her essay "Dictators and Double Standards", Jeanne Kirkpatrick elaborated the distinction between "authoritarian" and "totalitarian" regimes which served as the justification for the US policy of collaborating with rightist dictators while attempting to destabilise Communist regimes: authoritarian dictators are pragmatic rulers who care about their power and wealth and are indifferent to ideological issues, even if they pay lip service to some big idea. In contrast, totalitarian leaders are selfless ideological fanatics who are ready to put everything at stake for their ideals. Authoritarian rulers react rationally and predictably to material and military threats - they can be dealt with. Totalitarian leaders are much more dangerous and have to be confronted directly. The irony is that this distinction perfectly encapsulates what went wrong with the US occupation of Iraq: Saddam was a corrupt authoritarian dictator guided by brutal pragmatic considerations. The US intervention has generated a much more uncompromising, "fundamentalist" opposition which rejects pragmatic compromises.
 
Explain yourself then - do you agree that the Soviet economy was a disaster? Why was it a disaster? Had political pressure not been applied by the neo-whoevers, would the USSR still be in existence today? And just out of interest, would you like to have lived in the USSR?

I think you really need to retrace your steps with respect to this thread.

In a previous post, you originally made the claim that you "don't know why anyone would think that the collapse of the Soviet Union related to anything other than its inherent economic problems", in other words, you confessed to your ignorance of all analyses that demonstrate that the Soviet Union's collapse was the result of forces other than domestic economic contingencies. I then pointed out that the Soviet collapse "wasn't the result of economic problems, mush less inherent ones; it was entirely political, a direct result of Gorbachov's glasnost and perestroika in the 1980s [ie the incubation by political means of neo-liberal ideology], " and further emphasising this by reference to Cuba and the U.S., two countries, like many others, with "inherent economic problems", when I stated that "Cuba has suffered from "inherent economic problems" for over forty years. Why hasn't it collapsed? The U.S. today is massively insolvent as an economic entity [unprecedented debts and deficits running into trillions]. Why hasn't it collapsed?" The point being that economic problems, however severe, never precipitate the complete collapse of the entire state ideological apparatus of the so afflicted country [from Zimbabwe to Afghanistan].

But instead of trying to assimilate the above you instead then responded with a total red herring, with non-sequiters, with false claims about what I actually said: "Anyway, what you're saying is that the Soviet economy was strong and sustainable and that it could have continued along its merry way indefinitely had Gorbachov not betrayed it to the forces of neo-liberalism?"

And when I again in response re-affirmed what I had previously stated - "No, what I said was that its collapse was due to the political, not the economic" - you immediately (above quoted) deflected from the issue via aggressive, nonsensical interrogative questioning, viz "Explain yourself then - do you agree that the Soviet economy was a disaster?" Again, the topic was the basis for the collapse of the Soviet Union, not subjectivist judgements about the state of its economy at that time.

As for your own unexamined remarks about Žižek - an "idiot", etc - perhaps you might do yourself a favour by actually beginning an attempt to comprehend his arguments before spectacularly exhibiting your near-terminal idiocy on this forum.

But you already know that, don't you ... ?
 
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