vimothy
yurp
Cheers!
Occupying the Moral High Ground
- Thread starter vimothy
- Start date
Cheers!
vimothy
yurp
I love you
Yep
Except socialism is actually an economic programme, even though most contemporary socialists have accepted the basic efficiency and necessity of the market, and seek to regulate it instead of replacing it. Just like, coincidentally, Mussolini, who moderated the Marxist policies of his youth with an increasingly pragmatic approach when he took power with the Fascists.
Go ahead and believe what you choose to believe: that the left are freedom fighters and the right are rich vampires.
Good fucking idea matt b (took you a while though). Here's a quote that springs immediately to mind:
The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States
I am not an anarcho-capitalist. I am pro rule of law and I am pro national defense: I am a minarchist in that I want to reduce the role of the state rather than abolish it completely. I like how you demand that my politics are consistent with your own personal ideology, but thank you I think I'll make my own mind up.
And do you think I'm in favour of that?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well hang on a second here, Vim: how much of America's foreign policy since WWII could be called "national defence"? Rooting out the (original) al-Qaeda forces in Afghanistan is the closest thing that springs to my mind. And what about Iraq - either in '91 or '03?
vimothy
yurp
Have you read anything by Thomas PM Barnett?
matt b
Indexing all opinion
i guess we have very different definitions of what socialism is then- i'm no marxist, or socialist but the two terms are not interchangeable
i don't believe this- where have i even suggested it?
i'm not a pacifist either. why do you think i am?
i don't wish your politics to be consistent with mine, i'd like your politics to be internally consistent- your's seems to be all over the shop.
well, it was 'the right' what did it, and you've spent a lot of time justifying their position, see?
vimothy
yurp
Barnett's blog: http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/weblog/
Shrink the Gap: http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/05/18/redefining-the-gap-11-results.html
Review of Blueprint for Action: http://www.d-n-i.net/dni_reviews/blueprint_for_action.htm
Shrink the Gap: http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/05/18/redefining-the-gap-11-results.html
Review of Blueprint for Action: http://www.d-n-i.net/dni_reviews/blueprint_for_action.htm
vimothy
yurp
Here's some excerpts from a letter from the Mayor of Tall 'Afar, Iraq, to the troops of the 3rd Armoured Cavalry Regiment. Hear his opinion the "resistance":
To the lion-hearts who liberated our city from the grasp of terrorists who were beheading men, women and children in the streets for many months.
Our city was the main base of operations for Abu Mousab Al Zarqawi. The city was completely held hostage in the hands of his henchmen. Our schools, governmental services, businesses and offices were closed. Our streets were silent, and no one dared to walk them. Our people were barricaded in their homes out of fear; death awaited them around every corner. Terrorists occupied and controlled the only hospital in the city. Their savagery reached such a level that they stuffed the corpses of children with explosives and tossed them into the streets in order to kill grieving parents attempting to retrieve the bodies of their young. This was the situation of our city until God prepared and delivered unto them the courageous soldiers of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, who liberated this city, ridding it of Zarqawi's followers after harsh fighting, killing many terrorists, and forcing the remaining butchers to flee the city like rats to the surrounding areas, where the bravery of other 3d ACR soldiers in Sinjar, Rabiah, Zumar and Avgani finally destroyed them.
I have met many soldiers of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment; they are not only courageous men and women, but avenging angels sent by The God Himself to fight the evil of terrorism. ... Officers and soldiers alike bristle with the confidence and character of knights in a bygone era. The mission they have accomplished, by means of a unique military operation, stands among the finest military feats to date in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and truly deserves to be studied in military science. This military operation was clean, with little collateral damage, despite the ferocity of the enemy. With the skill and precision of surgeons they dealt with the terrorist cancers in the city without causing unnecessary damage.
Let America, their families, and the world be proud of their sacrifice for humanity and life.
- http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/004167.html
To the lion-hearts who liberated our city from the grasp of terrorists who were beheading men, women and children in the streets for many months.
Our city was the main base of operations for Abu Mousab Al Zarqawi. The city was completely held hostage in the hands of his henchmen. Our schools, governmental services, businesses and offices were closed. Our streets were silent, and no one dared to walk them. Our people were barricaded in their homes out of fear; death awaited them around every corner. Terrorists occupied and controlled the only hospital in the city. Their savagery reached such a level that they stuffed the corpses of children with explosives and tossed them into the streets in order to kill grieving parents attempting to retrieve the bodies of their young. This was the situation of our city until God prepared and delivered unto them the courageous soldiers of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, who liberated this city, ridding it of Zarqawi's followers after harsh fighting, killing many terrorists, and forcing the remaining butchers to flee the city like rats to the surrounding areas, where the bravery of other 3d ACR soldiers in Sinjar, Rabiah, Zumar and Avgani finally destroyed them.
I have met many soldiers of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment; they are not only courageous men and women, but avenging angels sent by The God Himself to fight the evil of terrorism. ... Officers and soldiers alike bristle with the confidence and character of knights in a bygone era. The mission they have accomplished, by means of a unique military operation, stands among the finest military feats to date in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and truly deserves to be studied in military science. This military operation was clean, with little collateral damage, despite the ferocity of the enemy. With the skill and precision of surgeons they dealt with the terrorist cancers in the city without causing unnecessary damage.
Let America, their families, and the world be proud of their sacrifice for humanity and life.
- http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/004167.html
vimothy
yurp
Here's another great letter, from brave dissident Iranian students to Nobel Prize winner Harold Pinter, writing at risk to themselves (much more noble than anything Pinter has done):
Today, we the people of Iran are under the yoke of a regime no less brutal than the Nazis. Just like the Nazis, the Islamists are motivated by an ideology of hate. They have destroyed our country that they conquered through terror. They are as ruthless as the Nazis. Can Mr. Printer tell us, how can we fight them back with our bare hands?
Mr. Pinter is not moved by the misery of people who may not be as white as he is. ... He thinks others have to fight for their freedom if they really want it badly. Did you fight for your freedom Mr. Printer or was it given to you in silver platter, courtesy of the very Americans that today you disregard. How ungrateful of you Sir!
As the oppressed people of a third world country, that will remain a third world as long as it is not liberated, we would like to thank the United States of America, the Great Britain and all other countries that helped to get rid of the blood thirsty dictators such as Saddam Hussein, Molla-Omar and the Taleban. ... We dream of the day that our flag will be hoisted next to the flags of other free nations and will dance in the wind proclaiming our freedom to the world. The oppressed people will be victorious and you and your ilk will be remembered as those who sided with their oppressors. Your name will be covered with shame.
- http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/TehranUni51105.htm
Today, we the people of Iran are under the yoke of a regime no less brutal than the Nazis. Just like the Nazis, the Islamists are motivated by an ideology of hate. They have destroyed our country that they conquered through terror. They are as ruthless as the Nazis. Can Mr. Printer tell us, how can we fight them back with our bare hands?
Mr. Pinter is not moved by the misery of people who may not be as white as he is. ... He thinks others have to fight for their freedom if they really want it badly. Did you fight for your freedom Mr. Printer or was it given to you in silver platter, courtesy of the very Americans that today you disregard. How ungrateful of you Sir!
As the oppressed people of a third world country, that will remain a third world as long as it is not liberated, we would like to thank the United States of America, the Great Britain and all other countries that helped to get rid of the blood thirsty dictators such as Saddam Hussein, Molla-Omar and the Taleban. ... We dream of the day that our flag will be hoisted next to the flags of other free nations and will dance in the wind proclaiming our freedom to the world. The oppressed people will be victorious and you and your ilk will be remembered as those who sided with their oppressors. Your name will be covered with shame.
- http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/TehranUni51105.htm
matt b
Indexing all opinion
Hear Gen Sir Michael Rose's opinion the "resistance":
Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.
now, can you address some of the questions asked upthread?
Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.
now, can you address some of the questions asked upthread?
matt b
Indexing all opinion
the sentences in my posts ending in a question mark
vimothy
yurp
So Gen Rose thinks that the US and UK should leave Iraq to the insurgents. The insurgents who are a mix of Iraqi and foreign jihadists, Sunni supremecists and disgruntled ex-baathists. If they are so popular with the locals, why don't they just stand for election?
The true face of the resistance:
"Marines from Golf Company said they recently fished two bodies out of the local river: a man had been decapitated, and his 4-year old tied to his leg before both were thrown into the river and the little boy drowned. The killings were a product of Al Qaeda terror."
- http://uscavonpoint.com/articles2/Article.aspx?id=1506
vimothy
yurp
I don't know. But you do seem to fail to see the obvious relationship between Fascism, Nazism and Communism.
I have very little interest in what you believe, matt, to be perfectly honest. But I thought that your suggestion to read Orwell was a good one. That quote is relevant to the thread and relevant to the discussions we are having, so I quoted it.
Not really. I am "fiscally conservative, culturally liberal" and support an interventionist foreign policy. They are my politics.
Yes very clever. I clearly don't support the actions of anyone who empowers fascist dictatorships, as I've spent a lot of time explaining.
matt b
Indexing all opinion
i certainly do- they're all totalitarian and anti-freedom. therefore i don't like any of them. you seem to assume that if someone is on 'the left' they support communist russia, which is not true (back to orwell again)
so why waste your time, and mine, putting words into my mouth?
matt b
Indexing all opinion
i'm not trying to be clever, i'm trying to tease out inconsistencies in your position- the american gvt (unfortunately) has and does empower fascist dictatorships, yet you still assume america's foreign policy is good and pure.
vimothy
yurp
And they're all interrelated in their class-conscious populism, collectivism and economic policies, the Fascist being the least extreme and the Communists being the most, with the Nazis somewhere inbetween.
There was leftist opposition to Stalinism (Trotsky and numerous anarchists, for e.g.). However, there was also a lot of cretinous support for Stalin (for instance denials of the existance of Famine in the Ukraine by the NY Times, the sacking of Malcolm Muggeridge by the Manchester Guardian for reporting it:
Back at the Manchester Guardian, few wished to believe Muggeridge's despatches, which were severely edited, and he was forced to leave Russia. Ian Hunter, Malcolm Muggeridge's first biographer writes: "He was sacked, then vilified, slandered and abused, not least in the pages of the Manchester Guardian, whose sympathy to what was called 'the great Soviet experiment' was de rigeur."
- http://www.brama.com/news/press/2003/10/031001leliw_muggeridge.html).
I never said you were a pacifist. You said to read some Orwell and that's what I did.
vimothy
yurp
No, actually I don't. The west has committed a lot of crimes, and so has America. However, that doesn't mean that American foreign policy must therefore always by necessity be wrong and imperialist.
vimothy
yurp
This is good, "How the Left Betrayed my Country - Iraq", by Naseer Flayih Hasan:
Before the last war, we Iraqis spent decades cut off from the outside world. Not only did the Baathist regime prevent us from traveling during the Iran-Iraq conflict and the period of the sanctions, but they punished anyone possessing satellite television. And of course, internet access was strictly limited. Because of our isolation, most of us had little idea or sense about life beyond our borders.
We did believe, however, that democracy and human rights were important factors in Western civilization. So it came as a shock to us when millions of people began demonstrating across the world against America’s build-up to the invasion of our country. We supposed the protests were by people who had no idea about the terrible atrocities that the regime had inflicted upon us for decades. We assumed that once they learned what had happened in Iraq, they would change their minds, or modify their opposition to the war.
My first clue that this would not happen was a few weeks after Baghdad fell. I had befriended a French reporter who had begun to realize that the situation in Iraq was not how the international media or the so-called “peace camp” described it. I noticed, however, that whenever he tried to voice his doubts to colleagues, they argued that he was wrong. Soon afterwards, I met a Dutch woman on Mutinabi Street, where booksellers lay out their wares on Friday morning. I asked her how long she’d been in Iraq and, through a translator, she answered, “Three months.”
“So you were here during the war?”
“Yes!” she said. “To see the crimes of the Americans!”
I was stunned. After a moment, I replied, “What about the crimes of the regime? It killed millions of Iraqis. Do you know that if the regime was still in power, the conversation we’re having now would result in our torture or death?”
Her face turned red and she angrily responded, “Soon will come the day that the Americans will do worse.” She then went on to accuse me of not knowing what the true facts were in Iraq—and that she could see the situation better than me!
She was not the only “humanitarian” who expressed such outrageous opinions. One afternoon, I was speaking to some members of the American anti-war group “Voices in the Wilderness.” One of the group’s members declared that the Iraqi Governing Council (then in power at the time) were “traitors.” I was shocked. Most of the Council were people whom we Iraqis knew had suffered and sacrificed in a long struggle against the regime. Some represented opposition parties who had lost ten of thousand of members in that struggle. Others came from families who had lost up to 30 loved ones to the Baathists.
After those, and many other, experiences, we finally comprehended how little we had in common with these “peace activists” who constantly decried American crimes, and hated to listen to us talk about the terrible long nightmare that ended with the collapse of the regime. We came to understand how these “humanitarians” experienced a sort of pleasure when terrorists or former remnants of the regime created destruction in Iraq—just so they could feel that they were right, and the Americans wrong!
Worse, we realized it was hopeless to make them grasp our feelings. We believed—and still believe--that America’s removal of the regime opened a new way for democracy. At the same time, we have no illusions that the U.S. came to Iraq on a white horse to save our people. We understand this war is all about national interests, and that America’s interests are mainly about defeating terrorism. At this moment, though, U.S. interests are doing more to bring about democracy and freedom in Iraq than, say, the policies of France and Russia—countries which also care little for the Iraqi people and, worse, did their best to save Saddam from destruction until the last moment.
It’s worth noting, as well, that the general attitude of peace activists I met was tension and anger. They were impossible to reason with. This was because, on one hand, the sometimes considerable risks they took to oppose the war made them unable to accept the fact that their cause was not as noble as they believed. Then, too, their dogmatic anti-American attitudes naturally drew them to guides, translators, drivers and Iraqi acquaintances who were themselves supporters of the regime. These Iraqis, in turn, affected the peace activists until they came to share almost the same judgments and opinions as the terrorists and defenders of Saddam.
This was very disappointing for someone like me, who thought for decades that the Left was generally the progressive power in the world. You can imagine how aghast I was when my French reporter friend told me that the Communist Party in his country actually considers the “insurgents” to be the equivalent of the French Gaullists! Or how troubling it is to hear Jacques Chirac take satisfaction from the violence wreaked by the terrorists—those bloody monsters that we Iraqis know so well—because they justify France’s original opposition to the war.
And so I have become disillusioned, at least with the Leftists I met in Iraq. So noble in their rhetoric, they looked to the stars, yet ignored what was happening around them, caring only about what was inside their minds. So glorious in their ideals, their thoughts were inflexible and their deeds unnecessary, even harmful. In the end, they proved to me how dogma and fanaticism had transform peace activists into—lifeless peace “statues.”
- http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=16513
Before the last war, we Iraqis spent decades cut off from the outside world. Not only did the Baathist regime prevent us from traveling during the Iran-Iraq conflict and the period of the sanctions, but they punished anyone possessing satellite television. And of course, internet access was strictly limited. Because of our isolation, most of us had little idea or sense about life beyond our borders.
We did believe, however, that democracy and human rights were important factors in Western civilization. So it came as a shock to us when millions of people began demonstrating across the world against America’s build-up to the invasion of our country. We supposed the protests were by people who had no idea about the terrible atrocities that the regime had inflicted upon us for decades. We assumed that once they learned what had happened in Iraq, they would change their minds, or modify their opposition to the war.
My first clue that this would not happen was a few weeks after Baghdad fell. I had befriended a French reporter who had begun to realize that the situation in Iraq was not how the international media or the so-called “peace camp” described it. I noticed, however, that whenever he tried to voice his doubts to colleagues, they argued that he was wrong. Soon afterwards, I met a Dutch woman on Mutinabi Street, where booksellers lay out their wares on Friday morning. I asked her how long she’d been in Iraq and, through a translator, she answered, “Three months.”
“So you were here during the war?”
“Yes!” she said. “To see the crimes of the Americans!”
I was stunned. After a moment, I replied, “What about the crimes of the regime? It killed millions of Iraqis. Do you know that if the regime was still in power, the conversation we’re having now would result in our torture or death?”
Her face turned red and she angrily responded, “Soon will come the day that the Americans will do worse.” She then went on to accuse me of not knowing what the true facts were in Iraq—and that she could see the situation better than me!
She was not the only “humanitarian” who expressed such outrageous opinions. One afternoon, I was speaking to some members of the American anti-war group “Voices in the Wilderness.” One of the group’s members declared that the Iraqi Governing Council (then in power at the time) were “traitors.” I was shocked. Most of the Council were people whom we Iraqis knew had suffered and sacrificed in a long struggle against the regime. Some represented opposition parties who had lost ten of thousand of members in that struggle. Others came from families who had lost up to 30 loved ones to the Baathists.
After those, and many other, experiences, we finally comprehended how little we had in common with these “peace activists” who constantly decried American crimes, and hated to listen to us talk about the terrible long nightmare that ended with the collapse of the regime. We came to understand how these “humanitarians” experienced a sort of pleasure when terrorists or former remnants of the regime created destruction in Iraq—just so they could feel that they were right, and the Americans wrong!
Worse, we realized it was hopeless to make them grasp our feelings. We believed—and still believe--that America’s removal of the regime opened a new way for democracy. At the same time, we have no illusions that the U.S. came to Iraq on a white horse to save our people. We understand this war is all about national interests, and that America’s interests are mainly about defeating terrorism. At this moment, though, U.S. interests are doing more to bring about democracy and freedom in Iraq than, say, the policies of France and Russia—countries which also care little for the Iraqi people and, worse, did their best to save Saddam from destruction until the last moment.
It’s worth noting, as well, that the general attitude of peace activists I met was tension and anger. They were impossible to reason with. This was because, on one hand, the sometimes considerable risks they took to oppose the war made them unable to accept the fact that their cause was not as noble as they believed. Then, too, their dogmatic anti-American attitudes naturally drew them to guides, translators, drivers and Iraqi acquaintances who were themselves supporters of the regime. These Iraqis, in turn, affected the peace activists until they came to share almost the same judgments and opinions as the terrorists and defenders of Saddam.
This was very disappointing for someone like me, who thought for decades that the Left was generally the progressive power in the world. You can imagine how aghast I was when my French reporter friend told me that the Communist Party in his country actually considers the “insurgents” to be the equivalent of the French Gaullists! Or how troubling it is to hear Jacques Chirac take satisfaction from the violence wreaked by the terrorists—those bloody monsters that we Iraqis know so well—because they justify France’s original opposition to the war.
And so I have become disillusioned, at least with the Leftists I met in Iraq. So noble in their rhetoric, they looked to the stars, yet ignored what was happening around them, caring only about what was inside their minds. So glorious in their ideals, their thoughts were inflexible and their deeds unnecessary, even harmful. In the end, they proved to me how dogma and fanaticism had transform peace activists into—lifeless peace “statues.”
- http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=16513