Occupying the Moral High Ground

G

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Gavin said:
I think the task is to organize the left so that when the impending collapse comes, we'll have socialism as a safety net from descent into barbarism and chaos. And from the state of things, the left needs quite a bit of time before the collapse to get its shit together.

I'm also wary about totally giving up on states, since at least at this point they offer some resistance to Capital, especially as a recourse for organized workers. This is fraught with peril of course, but I'm not sure we should cede any territory too hastily.

As far as entropy goes, I think it's a result of the intense commodification of time and space (esp. virtual space, which basically is like a free-floating Capital fantasy)... how much more surplus value can you extract from each minute? Capital's reaching a kind of plateau here.
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We need something AFTER capital AFTER socialism AFTER it all. After the REAL point of rupture, global rupture. There must be some way out of this tiresome end-game, and if the left have no way of defeating capitalism, then one must think in different directions- indeed the by-product of capitalism is that the very notion of after-capital, of thinking after-capital in an entirely innovative manner becomes blocked. If Capital is as dangerous as it is, why not utilise it as a force that can be turned into just the kind of eschatological EVENT required? Accelerate it, abstract it even further. Of course I'm probably talking abject bollocks here, but I can't see there is anyway to move beyond it other than to ride it, contort it, confront it with its own reals, the flaws in its skin that become ever clearer the further it is stretched taut across the world.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
Vim: Re Anacho-capitalism etc... I'm interested in the idea of using capitalism (the most powerful force for de-statification I can think of) to deconstruct itself, the state etc... it seems that in many respects the fire of capital (especially in its newly abstracted form as globalised meta-capital: the shuffling of abstractions of risk essentially) is constrained by the state (or states even) in an attempt to harness it as a force for good, within a mixed economy. What would be interesting, perhaps (from an anti-capitalist PoV) would be to entirely unleash capitalism from its constraints. Without anything to hold it back, without any attempt to utilise it as a force for good, I think, perhaps we could advance beyond it (obviously not to a position of state-capitalism or whatever).
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All for this, personally...

I can't help but think that all the efforts of the left to oppose capital from the other side merely affect an amelioration of the conditions it imposes, understandable (perhaps under the "Geldof" argument, that human pity and empathy conspire to create a need to avert this particular bit of immediate suffering presented before itself, even if in the long run it is merely a stick-plaster-solution over a gangrenous wound, and hence perpetuates the underlying causes) but wrong in some sense-- in that they are complicit in allowing capitalism, a fluid but destructive force to embed, albeit it on better terms (cf the argument that the 60s social revolutions were the worst possible things to happen, with the illusion of certain liberties extracted only at the price of agreeing to a continuation of the essential political-economic status quo). Capitalism then is a fire which can never burn itself out because states lack the Maoist indifference to suffering required to allow it to essentially destroy the world? If the only Utopias now reside as eschatological (or post eschatological) ones, then is this a conceivable route out of the entropy perversely imposed by the strictures of late capital? A system perhaps of apocalyptic capitalist nihilsm?
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...but think that this is perhaps misguided.

hmm...
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
Globalisation has been defined in terms of "non-zero-sumness", the ultimate non-zero-sum game. After that, who knows? I think it will develop naturally, if allowed.
 
Gavin

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
gek-opel said:
We need something AFTER capital AFTER socialism AFTER it all. After the REAL point of rupture, global rupture. There must be some way out of this tiresome end-game, and if the left have no way of defeating capitalism, then one must think in different directions- indeed the by-product of capitalism is that the very notion of after-capital, of thinking after-capital in an entirely innovative manner becomes blocked. If Capital is as dangerous as it is, why not utilise it as a force that can be turned into just the kind of eschatological EVENT required? Accelerate it, abstract it even further. Of course I'm probably talking abject bollocks here, but I can't see there is anyway to move beyond it other than to ride it, contort it, confront it with its own reals, the flaws in its skin that become ever clearer the further it is stretched taut across the world.
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So act as agents provocateur, disguising our motives as the most extreme complicity? Are i-bankers the real revolutionaries, expanding Capital ever further? Should we then spread Capitalist ideology as well?

Actually, I think there is something to this; the extremes of exploitation, and their direct link to Capital, are becoming harder to ignore even in the States especially around the health-care issue, and illegal immigration, even though this is far too frequently articulated through the most vulgar racisms. But I'm less and less concerned in convincing my liberal friends the utter direness of the situation, and how Barack Obama does absolutely nothing to change it. I'd rather think about how to prevent mass starvation once the wheels finally break off of this infernal machine. Not to get all determinist-Marxist, but I do think Capital's collapse is inevitable.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Gavin said:
I'd rather think about how to prevent mass starvation once the wheels finally break off of this infernal machine.
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Another gleefull doom-monger!
People have been prophesising the end of the world since the beginnings of history, you know...
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
But surely Marx is about as wrong as you can get? I mean, the collapse of communism, the surge of capitalism and free trade leading to globalisation, the numerous economic inconsistencies inherent in Marx's system, etc?
 
G

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Aha- of course Vim, for you view Capitalism as essentially good, and I view it as essentially destructive. We might agree, however, on the idea that we don't know precisely what happens when you let it ESCAPE the strictures of the state which keeps it in check like some kind of vicious animal. I think the formations of meta-capital and the abstractions of the banking system might give us some clues given the fact that part of their very functionality is to operate beyond the law, innovations to evade the rule of law, to operate just outside the grasp of the state. They lead to instability, weakness, (probably a Zizekian decline in symbolic efficacy to boot haha) and immense social iniquities. These very properties might be accelerated, in a globalised economy to create the rupturing, rapturous event necessary to reach the absolute limit point of capital, to enable, perhaps the thinking of the un-thinkable.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
gek-opel said:
Aha- of course Vim, for you view Capitalism as essentially good, and I view it as essentially destructive. We might agree, however, on the idea that we don't know precisely what happens when you let it ESCAPE the strictures of the state which keeps it in check like some kind of vicious animal. I think the formations of meta-capital and the abstractions of the banking system might give us some clues given the fact that part of their very functionality is to operate beyond the law, innovations to evade the rule of law, to operate just outside the grasp of the state. They lead to instability, weakness, (probably a Zizekian decline in symbolic efficacy to boot haha) and immense social iniquities. These very properties might be accelerated, in a globalised economy to create the rupturing, rapturous event necessary to reach the absolute limit point of capital, to enable, perhaps the thinking of the un-thinkable.
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Two things spring to mind immediately:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

http://www.d-n-i.net/creveld/the_fate_of_the_state.htm
 
Gavin

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Mr. Tea said:
This thread, considering its length and seriousness, has so far been exceptional for its civility and maturity.
Let's try to keep it that way, eh?
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In the name of maturity then, I refuse to debate politics or economics with anyone who can't distinguish between fascism and socialism.
 
G

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Gavin said:
So act as agents provocateur, disguising our motives as the most extreme complicity? Are i-bankers the real revolutionaries, expanding Capital ever further? Should we then spread Capitalist ideology as well?

Actually, I think there is something to this; the extremes of exploitation, and their direct link to Capital, are becoming harder to ignore even in the States especially around the health-care issue, and illegal immigration, even though this is far too frequently articulated through the most vulgar racisms. But I'm less and less concerned in convincing my liberal friends the utter direness of the situation, and how Barack Obama does absolutely nothing to change it. I'd rather think about how to prevent mass starvation once the wheels finally break off of this infernal machine. Not to get all determinist-Marxist, but I do think Capital's collapse is inevitable.
Click to expand...

Precisely- in a way one could draw some of the ideas outlined by Reza Negarestani in his piece on Islamic Terrorism ("The Militarization of Peace") to create further instabilities... the placing of the enemy war-machine inside a state, leaving it to do nothing, bringing into play the self-destructive die-back mechanisms whereby the invaded body attacks itself, whilst the enemy operatives do little more than take on precisely all the properties of the state itself, which knowing they are inside it has little to do than destroy itself. The very last thing that is needed, if you follow this line of thought to its nihilistic, cosmically indifferent end point is to make a reformed capitalism, a friendlier capitalism, a socially conscious capitalism- pure amelioration, Geldofian pity-politics, padding the cell-which-still-remains-nonetheless-a-cell...
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Gavin said:
In the name of maturity then, I refuse to debate politics or economics with anyone who can't distinguish between fascism and socialism.
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Then I suggest you log off and spend some time stocking up your bunker in preparation for the coming capit-ocalypse.
 
Gavin

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
vimothy said:
Why don't you just explain the difference to me?
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For the same reason I won't wipe your ass, or explain how you should do it. Ignore me or continue to quote me with your unfunny nonsequiturs, but I'm not going for your silly bait any more.
 
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