What definition of "democracy" is being used here? ......
Really, if nothing else this thread demostrates the remarkable gymnastics apologists for imperialism must go through to justify the war, and they STILL come off as foolish and racist.
So here we have the charicature of the insurgency as the brave and entirely justified efforts of an oppressed people to throw of their hated imperialist oppressor, to contrast nicely with Vimothy's idea of the bloodthirsty ingratitude of a bunch of terrorists throwing the freedom they've been given back in the faces of their selfless, baffled liberators.
As usual, I think the reality lies somewhere between the two extremes - without, in this case, bearing too much resemblance to either of them.
To Gavin, I would ask: if the sole purpose of the insurgency is expel US/UK forces from Iraq (as an Iraqi woman writing in the Guardian not long ago claimed), why are the overwhelming majority of its victims
other Iraqis? How is reducing a bunch of civilians - Arab Muslims to a person - to lumps of wet meat on the pavement meant to strike hard at the American military presence? Is it like a baby holding its breath until it gets what it wants, or what? The 'few Iraqis' who want to destroy their own country unfortunately seem to have lots of weapons and power, and they presumably wouldn't have those unless they had some level of popular support in at least some areas (leaving aside for the moment any foreign, i.e. Iranian, assistance). Just because you (understandably) blame the coalition forces and the powers that control them for their (at best) incompetence and (at worst) outright greed and barbarity, that does not mean you have to let wicked religious extremists off scot free.
To Vim: how can you expect a population to be 'grateful' for their 'liberation' when a huge number of them - not just die-hard Ba'athists, but conscripted soldiers and civilians - have been killed in the initial war, when the occupying force supposed to keep the 'peace' is so clueless about the country it's in it can scarcely scratch its arse without inflaming deep-seated religious hatreds and tribal rivalries, when almost unbelievable amounts of
the country's own money meant to be used in restructuring have been squandered or simply stolen and when abuses and killings of exactly the sort that have been (retrospectively) used to justify the invasion have been committed by the 'liberating' troops?
On one last note, I don't think it's doing anything other than muddying the waters here by slinging around insults like 'racist'; Vim is obviously well to the right of most people on this forum but I for one don't think he's racist.