these threads seem to come up every other year or so and every single time, a number of artists, labels, and tracks are mentioned (usually in the same breath) while the moaners still expect someone to provide them with some flawless pomegranate that will instantly transport them to the BLOODCLART JUNGLE TEKNO that lit up their youth. as SR put it, Offshore sounds as if dnb had picked up right around 97 before it "lost the plot," and so do other quality labels like Subtle Audio, Counter Intelligence, Subvert Central, etc. if you're only going to be satisfied by epoch-defining, boundary-shattering 1993 Golden Age mentalism, then of course you're setting yourself up to be disappointed. you've already got links and names in this thread; is it that hard to do a quick search at Chemical Records or whatever and decide for yourself...?bassnation said:
Modern d'n'b is rubbish - tune ID and a moan from an old man
- Thread starter john eden
- Start date
bassnation
the abyss
yeah, whatever.
i have been checking them and sorry mate but its just not doing it for me. nothing thats been mentioned here is even as good as pre 1997 stuff, let alone 1993 darkcore mentalism. i check stuff periodically, including that new rufige kru (have you not been following the thread?). already said i like naphtas stuff. offshore bores me despite reynolds seal of approval. i occasionally drop some of breakages cuts. don't see why i have to restate the nuances of my position.
but feel free to post some links to your favourite tracks and i'll post stuff thats better, believe. what i am not going to do is trawl through a mountain of headbanging nonsense to find a few hidden but generally uninspired gems.
and as for wanting to relive the sounds that lit up my youth, well dubstep is still doing it for me and no-one accuses that of being a cheap 1993 darkcore copy.
if you like it then good for you.
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john eden
male pale and stale
borderpolice
Well-known member
Most of the best music is made by experienced and professional musicians who stay within a genre, from bach to james brown to timbaland. Whether that genre excites them as much as it did when they were 15 is another question, but experience generally trumps enthusiasm. Most new producers/musicians try copy an existing style, whether consciously or not is likewise another question. But the dynamics of influence and experience leads to a fairly stable reproduction of successful genres.
Genre-defining moments are rare.
I was obviously simplifying. However, HipHop now and HipHop in 1978 are clearly very similar, Public Enemy were an exception that didn't have a strong musical influence on later HipHop. I'd say there have been essentially four innovations: (1) g-funk type samples, (2) techno/trance type synth noises for harmonisation, bass and stabs, (3) James Brown/Stubblefield/Jab'o'Starks type beats have given way to timbaland type beats, (4), maybe most importantly: the introduction of the male/female duett as standard HipHop vocal, with the female voice providing a strong melodic element.
I was in a club a couple of weeks ago with a 21 year old friend. sandwiched between contemporary HipHop, the DJ played "superrappin' Part 1" or whatever it was called, by the people who would later call themselves "the furious five". I pointed out that that track was much older than her, and she was really surprised. It fitted prefectly.
There is modern garage in the turntable orchestra tradition? Where? I'd like to know! Maaaan, You're Gonna Miss Me is one of my all-time favourites!
bassnation said:
oh ffs
http://12.158.191.103/audio/sr18a.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF266526-01-01-03.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF227338-01-01-01.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF267704-01-01-01.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF210228-01-02-01.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF254669-01-01-01.mp3
http://www.chemical-records.co.uk/sc/servlet/sm?C=THE021&S=a
http://12.158.191.103/audio/ziq135a.mp3
ditto, but i have a hard time understanding how you be that into dubstep, and still find the likes of Offshore to be "uninspired."
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bassnation
the abyss
oh ffs
http://12.158.191.103/audio/sr18a.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF266526-01-01-03.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF227338-01-01-01.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF267704-01-01-01.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF210228-01-02-01.mp3
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF254669-01-01-01.mp3
http://www.chemical-records.co.uk/sc/servlet/sm?C=THE021&S=a
http://12.158.191.103/audio/ziq135a.mp3
ha ha, alright. going to check them and will freely admit if i'm wrong, ok?
sorry, i am such a contrary bastard where jungle is concerned.
well, i'll just expect links to (full downloads of) unreleased DJ Nut Nut when i return!ha ha, alright. going to check them and will freely admit if i'm wrong, ok?
sorry, i am such a contrary bastard where jungle is concerned.
bassnation
the abyss
well, i'll just expect links to (full downloads of) unreleased DJ Nut Nut when i return!
LOL, your on. or maybe even Dj NUT-E-1 who was also a personal fave.
UFO over easy
online mahjong
It's just different music... the comparison doesn't really make sense to me. It's aesthetically so different, it's being made for a different crowd, and a largely non-raving crowd as has been mentioned due to the fact that the raves have been largely taken over by the most boring side of the music.
This is why I don't think the underground dnb movement should even be associating itself with dnb anymore. It sets itself up for comparisons with stuff it can never live up to - rose tinted specs or whatever. Too much has changed. In my opinion Offshore et al would do a lot better marketing themselves to the Boomkat crowd than the current dnb crowd.
It's funny that 'Malice in Wonderland' has been mentioned a few times....in my local HMV in Inverness there's about 5 or 6 copies of it in the Dance section (such as it is...) and I don't think they'll be shifting any time soon.
I kinda like it but even so, haven't really listened to it all the way through maybe more than 3 or 4 times. I'd certainly agree with anyone who says it's not a patch on stuff like 'Darkrider', 'Menace', 'Terminator' etc though....
I listened to 'Timeless' recently and it still sounds pretty good but at the time it seemed to me like a betrayal of what ardkore/jungle was about (too much studio gloss) but in the light of what d n' b became I can now forgive the slight excesses.
My most recent exposure to modern d n' b (I can never bring myself to call it jungle) was buying a copy of ATM and listening to the accompanying cover cd....talk about being bored fucking rigid. I had a hard time trying to associate this stuff with the music that had utterly obsessed me from '91 - '96 (when like so many people I jumped ship to garage/2step)...
I kinda like it but even so, haven't really listened to it all the way through maybe more than 3 or 4 times. I'd certainly agree with anyone who says it's not a patch on stuff like 'Darkrider', 'Menace', 'Terminator' etc though....
I listened to 'Timeless' recently and it still sounds pretty good but at the time it seemed to me like a betrayal of what ardkore/jungle was about (too much studio gloss) but in the light of what d n' b became I can now forgive the slight excesses.
My most recent exposure to modern d n' b (I can never bring myself to call it jungle) was buying a copy of ATM and listening to the accompanying cover cd....talk about being bored fucking rigid. I had a hard time trying to associate this stuff with the music that had utterly obsessed me from '91 - '96 (when like so many people I jumped ship to garage/2step)...
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
OK, back to the point - how it came to be so shit.
I get the impression d'n'b has become an affinity group, a mutual support network, rather than a musical movement, in the same way that people get into heavy metal, or goth, not so much for the music, but for the camaraderie. There's a big difference between that kind of "scene" and the musically evangelistic "scenius" that's driven jungle, garage, grime and dubstep. The music per se is secondary to having an identikit, cut-out-and-keep, ready-made circle of friends. In fact the music, or at least the innovation in the music, is something of a distraction from the repeated ceremonial formulae of the socialisation. Obviously, its becoming "student music" is part of it, but that's not the whole story, because it's not just appreciated by students. Rather it's become like a druggy version of Britrock: unthreatening, easily consumed and socially acceptable. While it's really fast on the surface, running at around 180 to 190bpm rather than jungle's 160-175bpm, you can bounce around to it at half speed and it's very comfortable - raving with minimum effort, with 80-85 bpm being not far off Oasis' slug-rock speed. Black rhythms (and black people) have been excised because all that funk and syncopation are too hard to bounce along to, and the black voices are just confusing. That endless deadening oompah-oompah two step beat sweeps all before it.
So it's a classic case of a product crossing over to a mainstream audience with totally different needs to its original customers, and in this case, utterly hollowing itself out in the process.
BTW, I could say that saying dubstep is like a cheap copy of 93 UK Dub shows how little you know about garage, and dub, but that would be churlish.
BTW 2, I just got a cheap thrill just by writing "93 UK Dub" all in one sentence! .*.93.*.
I get the impression d'n'b has become an affinity group, a mutual support network, rather than a musical movement, in the same way that people get into heavy metal, or goth, not so much for the music, but for the camaraderie. There's a big difference between that kind of "scene" and the musically evangelistic "scenius" that's driven jungle, garage, grime and dubstep. The music per se is secondary to having an identikit, cut-out-and-keep, ready-made circle of friends. In fact the music, or at least the innovation in the music, is something of a distraction from the repeated ceremonial formulae of the socialisation. Obviously, its becoming "student music" is part of it, but that's not the whole story, because it's not just appreciated by students. Rather it's become like a druggy version of Britrock: unthreatening, easily consumed and socially acceptable. While it's really fast on the surface, running at around 180 to 190bpm rather than jungle's 160-175bpm, you can bounce around to it at half speed and it's very comfortable - raving with minimum effort, with 80-85 bpm being not far off Oasis' slug-rock speed. Black rhythms (and black people) have been excised because all that funk and syncopation are too hard to bounce along to, and the black voices are just confusing. That endless deadening oompah-oompah two step beat sweeps all before it.
So it's a classic case of a product crossing over to a mainstream audience with totally different needs to its original customers, and in this case, utterly hollowing itself out in the process.
BTW, I could say that saying dubstep is like a cheap copy of 93 UK Dub shows how little you know about garage, and dub, but that would be churlish
. BTW 2, I just got a cheap thrill just by writing "93 UK Dub" all in one sentence! .*.93.*.
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
BTW, I bought the breakage lp for my wife cos she asked for a copy - it was incredibly boring! It sounded like a sample CD...
john eden
male pale and stale
BTW, I could say that saying dubstep is like a cheap copy of 93 UK Dub shows how little you know about garage, and dub, but that would be churlish
BTW 2, I just got a cheap thrill just by writing "93 UK Dub" all in one sentence! .*.93.*.
Ha ha I'm sure I could start a load of sentences off with "I could say... but I won't", but it's a bit wanky isn't it?
I know virtually nowt about garage, tho, that is true.
BP, I swear I'm not having wars with you but.....
I disagree. Almost every artist's early work is their best and after 15 years most are shit. That's why "I like their early stuff" is such a cliche. There are exceptions but they are in the minority.
OK fair enough
I wonder if I'm loads older than you? I don't mean it in a patronising way, just that the things that seem important to me all happened much earlier. All your things are 90s, possibly very late 80s in the case of the west coast p-funk-sampling g-funk.
here's a list of important changes that swept through rap music before your list:
1 - recording records with a band (previously there were live jams with rappers over DJs)
2 - drum machines and scratching (peter piper etc and electro)
3 - sampling (the SP12, cold chillin' etc)
4 - the money (hip hop stopped being made purely for creative expression and started being made to make money)
and THEN you get gangsta, g funk, the return to synths and drum machines (in the wake of spiralling sample-clearance fees) etc
not to my knowledge but I'm glad we've got something in common!
sorry for being off topic as usual......
I disagree. Almost every artist's early work is their best and after 15 years most are shit. That's why "I like their early stuff" is such a cliche. There are exceptions but they are in the minority.
OK fair enough
I wonder if I'm loads older than you? I don't mean it in a patronising way, just that the things that seem important to me all happened much earlier. All your things are 90s, possibly very late 80s in the case of the west coast p-funk-sampling g-funk.
here's a list of important changes that swept through rap music before your list:
1 - recording records with a band (previously there were live jams with rappers over DJs)
2 - drum machines and scratching (peter piper etc and electro)
3 - sampling (the SP12, cold chillin' etc)
4 - the money (hip hop stopped being made purely for creative expression and started being made to make money)
and THEN you get gangsta, g funk, the return to synths and drum machines (in the wake of spiralling sample-clearance fees) etc
not to my knowledge but I'm glad we've got something in common!
sorry for being off topic as usual......
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
you just missed the technicality all-nighter
apart from that, check any events at the castle
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
Piper was a bomb tune, massive... part of that techy movement towards technoey linearity - which was exciting at the time. The b-side, Common Origin, is a stunner - deep emotive synth workout. The Sawtooth LP had some lovely bits... not far from from the Detroit influence found in Omni Trio/Deep Blues stuff.
The first 5 or so tracks on the Truesteppers album are excellent crossover tunes, really open and creative, and the production is sharp as. Lots of non-linear bits, great beats / instrumentation etc... love hearing all those jungle motifs filtered through garage in a pop context.
UFO over easy
online mahjong
I spent a while trying to reply to some of the posts here... but then it started to depress me so I stopped
I'm looking forward to the point where drum and bass becomes SO unpopular (with the right people, crucially), that it becomes cool to like it. Maybe then people won't enter into these discussions with such low expectations.
It's like what happened with metal recently.. when will K-Punk start investigating 'hipster dnb'?
PS: bassnation - if you're talking about Sawtooth, that was fucking incredible! one of the best drum and bass LPs ever. Treading, I Let U, S4, Piper, Tychonic Cycle are ordinary?? It was a massively inventive and varied album.. he basically predicted every single different direction drum and bass would eventually fragment into. And there certainly was a detroit influence, Bleep. There's even a tune on the LP called 'Detroit'.
I'm looking forward to the point where drum and bass becomes SO unpopular (with the right people, crucially), that it becomes cool to like it. Maybe then people won't enter into these discussions with such low expectations.
It's like what happened with metal recently.. when will K-Punk start investigating 'hipster dnb'?
PS: bassnation - if you're talking about Sawtooth, that was fucking incredible! one of the best drum and bass LPs ever. Treading, I Let U, S4, Piper, Tychonic Cycle are ordinary?? It was a massively inventive and varied album.. he basically predicted every single different direction drum and bass would eventually fragment into. And there certainly was a detroit influence, Bleep. There's even a tune on the LP called 'Detroit'.
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