Dancehall Fans Against Homophobia
- Thread starter Red*
- Start date
bassnation said:
um, marc, that's not quite true and although i strongly disagree with tatchell's tactics while still agreeing with his basic agenda – that homophobia is a bad thing and people shouldn't be harassed, hurt or even killed for living their lives as they are meant to live them, <i>no matter where they are</i> – i'm bloody glad it isn't, or i'd disagree with him even more. only looking at how this affects people in the UK would be so nimby as to be puke-worthy, it'd be almost like saying, oh they can do what they like at home but as soon as they start threatening *us*, that's when we'll start to worry. this is an extremely thorny issue and one i'm far from at ease with myself – and i've probably thought about it a lot more than most! anyway, i won't be signing the petition or joining cz i'd rather do my thing my own way, but i support people taking the stand they believe they need to take.
Logan Sama
BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
While the basic premise of the outrage! movement is entirely correct, I can't help but feel that it doesn't solely exist to uphold those basic ideas.
I know Mr Tatchell was quite vocal in his campaigning to have the age of consent lowered drastically for homosexuals, which i find quite sinister.
I know Mr Tatchell was quite vocal in his campaigning to have the age of consent lowered drastically for homosexuals, which i find quite sinister.
bassnation
the abyss
stelfox said:
ok, accepted - you are right in saying that their scope is wider than that, a cursory glance at their site shows linked articles referring to the situation in JA with HIV infection and the effects that homophobia is having, such as people not getting the information they need.
what i meant was, in regard to dancehall artists playing the uk where the protests seem to be aimed. do outrage have any leverage in JA?
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
As to whether the people involved would like a more thorough-going analysis of the genesis of homophobia, including but not limited to its economic (and imperialist) roots, well, that's exactly what we'd like to see.
We're not doing this to make ourselves feel "better", we're doing this to create a different discourse that will mean that reggae does not get demonised. We think the campaign could have some level of real impact in the world.
I see Stelfox' issue with compilations however -- it's impossible to avoid possessing some homophobic tunes if you buy rhythm albums. But you can avoid playing them out
.
We're not doing this to make ourselves feel "better", we're doing this to create a different discourse that will mean that reggae does not get demonised. We think the campaign could have some level of real impact in the world.
I see Stelfox' issue with compilations however -- it's impossible to avoid possessing some homophobic tunes if you buy rhythm albums. But you can avoid playing them out
.
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
Oh go on, sign.stelfox said:
You get a free toy and everything.
And if you join, you're eligible for cheap home insurance.
Hi everyone,
I'm one of the people behind this DFAH thing.
It's not just targetted at Europeans, it's aimed at anyone/everyone. That's why we went for a .org address, rather than a .org.uk address, which was a fiver cheaper. I'd like to get to a situation where DFAH belongs to all those who've signed the petition.
As has been pointed, it's difficult when one homophobic track ruins what could be a perfectly good album. My solution would be to download the album from a file-sharing network, but I can understand how the vinyl junkie DJs might not see this as a solution.
I agree. Whilst the few of us who came up with this idea are UK based, I wouldn't want this to be seen as only examining how homophobia effects dancehall in the UK. That's why I put links to the Human Rights Watch report on homophobia in Jamaica on the news section (recommended in-depth reading for all), alongside an article in The Economist on HIV in Jamaica and an article from the Jamaican Gleaner.
I don't know what the future holds for DFAH, but I've got a few ideas. If the website and petition grows in 2005, and the issue is still a live one in 2006 (which I'm sure it will be once the Metropolitan Police reveal the results of their ongoing investigation into dancehall lyrics), then I hope to hold public debates. I'd like to get record companies and distributors to sign out petition (good to see that one has already), and invite them to debate the issues with Outrage, the Police, the Home Office or DFID, as well as others from the dancehall scene. In the meanwhile, I'd like to see DFAH's organisational structure formalised, with an official Steering Group.
Anyway, one of the aims of those involved in DFAH thus far is stimulating debate, so it's good to see that happening already.
DFAH_HQ
I'm one of the people behind this DFAH thing.
DavidD said:
It's not just targetted at Europeans, it's aimed at anyone/everyone. That's why we went for a .org address, rather than a .org.uk address, which was a fiver cheaper. I'd like to get to a situation where DFAH belongs to all those who've signed the petition.
DavidD said:
As has been pointed, it's difficult when one homophobic track ruins what could be a perfectly good album. My solution would be to download the album from a file-sharing network, but I can understand how the vinyl junkie DJs might not see this as a solution.
stelfox said:
I agree. Whilst the few of us who came up with this idea are UK based, I wouldn't want this to be seen as only examining how homophobia effects dancehall in the UK. That's why I put links to the Human Rights Watch report on homophobia in Jamaica on the news section (recommended in-depth reading for all), alongside an article in The Economist on HIV in Jamaica and an article from the Jamaican Gleaner.
I don't know what the future holds for DFAH, but I've got a few ideas. If the website and petition grows in 2005, and the issue is still a live one in 2006 (which I'm sure it will be once the Metropolitan Police reveal the results of their ongoing investigation into dancehall lyrics), then I hope to hold public debates. I'd like to get record companies and distributors to sign out petition (good to see that one has already), and invite them to debate the issues with Outrage, the Police, the Home Office or DFID, as well as others from the dancehall scene. In the meanwhile, I'd like to see DFAH's organisational structure formalised, with an official Steering Group.
Anyway, one of the aims of those involved in DFAH thus far is stimulating debate, so it's good to see that happening already.
DFAH_HQ
dutty old men feh dead!
i found this quite funny cos i'm not a massive fan of Mr T... but i dont think the implication is entirely fair.
after all it was mainly straight old men from the house of commons and lords who voted to lower the age of consent for het girls... if your gonna suggest outrage is all dirty old men out for a bit of sixteen yr old, you'd have to agree that most of the mps and lords are peados too.
the main reason to support equalising the age of consent (whether you fancy young boys or not) is to get away from criminalising young people which fucks up thier teenage sexual and personal development. believe.
as for tatchel.... reasons to be suspicious about him might include racial and gender exclusion from his movement and over specificty of 'gayness'. from my point of view he's concentrating on a small 'easily understandable' amount of homophobia in a subculture that most people can agree they dont mind being suppressed.
in fact he should surely be dealing with the homophobia in the home grown UK media, in the mianstream media. that forces people to deal with the crap quality of the stereotypes thier fed about queers on TV for example or the implicit funniness of queers in popular music shit like the killers "a boyfriend that looked like a gurlfriend hahaha" (why's it so funny that people could have 'other' ideas of gender construction) or that gay-bar song (who would really want to go to a gay bar? not me!). i kno these arnt saying "bwatty boi feh dead!" or anything but they propagate more insiduous assumptions about gender and sexuality far more widely. theyre not even homophobic maybe, just ignorant. He also has a pretty poor record of exploring issues relevent to women, or basically anyone outside a narrow middle-class white middle-aged male constituency.
people really dont care much about dancehall artists in the mainstream (i do btw) but saying theyre against homophobic dancehall gives them an easy 'gesture politic' which allows them to forget the real issues in the implicit homophobia which remains in our society... if mainstream UK society isnt still homophobic why did gay partnership have to be snuck thru on a heavy news day?
Logan Sama said:
i found this quite funny cos i'm not a massive fan of Mr T... but i dont think the implication is entirely fair.
after all it was mainly straight old men from the house of commons and lords who voted to lower the age of consent for het girls... if your gonna suggest outrage is all dirty old men out for a bit of sixteen yr old, you'd have to agree that most of the mps and lords are peados too.
the main reason to support equalising the age of consent (whether you fancy young boys or not) is to get away from criminalising young people which fucks up thier teenage sexual and personal development. believe.
as for tatchel.... reasons to be suspicious about him might include racial and gender exclusion from his movement and over specificty of 'gayness'. from my point of view he's concentrating on a small 'easily understandable' amount of homophobia in a subculture that most people can agree they dont mind being suppressed.
in fact he should surely be dealing with the homophobia in the home grown UK media, in the mianstream media. that forces people to deal with the crap quality of the stereotypes thier fed about queers on TV for example or the implicit funniness of queers in popular music shit like the killers "a boyfriend that looked like a gurlfriend hahaha" (why's it so funny that people could have 'other' ideas of gender construction) or that gay-bar song (who would really want to go to a gay bar? not me!). i kno these arnt saying "bwatty boi feh dead!" or anything but they propagate more insiduous assumptions about gender and sexuality far more widely. theyre not even homophobic maybe, just ignorant. He also has a pretty poor record of exploring issues relevent to women, or basically anyone outside a narrow middle-class white middle-aged male constituency.
people really dont care much about dancehall artists in the mainstream (i do btw) but saying theyre against homophobic dancehall gives them an easy 'gesture politic' which allows them to forget the real issues in the implicit homophobia which remains in our society... if mainstream UK society isnt still homophobic why did gay partnership have to be snuck thru on a heavy news day?
h-crimm said:
http://www.labourfriendsofiraq.org.uk/archives/000081.html
Peter Tatchell said:
h-crimm said:
Really? He's done all kinds of work on Zimbabwe, on Palestine, on the Muslim world, and further afield, not just in Britain (where he's done a lot of work as well). I don't agree with you on that at all. If you look at his work you'll find that he's repeatedly worked with groups like the Black Gay Men's Advisory Group and others, and highlighted the work of local feminist and gay rights groups across the world. As an example, one of the Outrage spokesmen on the issue of Ken Livingstone snuggling up to Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi has been Ramzi Isalam, a gay man who fled Algeria after death threats from Islamists.
http://outrage.nabumedia.com/pressrelease.asp?ID=262
Ramzi Isalam said:
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effect in JA
these kind of things could, and I think have had an effect JA, as far as Jamaican artists who want to break big outside JA. I think it might hurt their credibility back home, but I'm not sure how much lyrical gay-bashing is linked with authenticity. I.E. if the music is otherwise considered good, would Jamaican fans miss it? Most loss of credibility I can remember (of Jamaican artists in Jamaica) was for making crap 'crossover' tunes.
Don't know, if most big artists decided to stop talking about it, would that affect what folk think is acceptable?
Seems difficult to figure, since, from what I've heard "burn chi-chi-man" tunes are still one big way artists give themselves a ratings boost in JA when fans think you're slipping in quality.
these kind of things could, and I think have had an effect JA, as far as Jamaican artists who want to break big outside JA. I think it might hurt their credibility back home, but I'm not sure how much lyrical gay-bashing is linked with authenticity. I.E. if the music is otherwise considered good, would Jamaican fans miss it? Most loss of credibility I can remember (of Jamaican artists in Jamaica) was for making crap 'crossover' tunes.
Don't know, if most big artists decided to stop talking about it, would that affect what folk think is acceptable?
Seems difficult to figure, since, from what I've heard "burn chi-chi-man" tunes are still one big way artists give themselves a ratings boost in JA when fans think you're slipping in quality.
okay so i'll shift my complaint to the representation and perception of his work, which i think is strongly focussed on the limited issue of dancehall and its influence on attacks in the UK, from reading those articles it seems that has more to do with what the BBC and guardian think is news that the reality if his work and so he's not to blame.
the question of engaging with women is something i'd talked to some active queer girl friends of mine in london, but it could be a more personal issue...
thanks for puting me right on that.
i do still think that dancehall is a bit of an irrelevent target in terms of the representation of queers in the media ... and i do think he's missing an element of 'set your own house in order'. seeing "queer eye... " makes me feel more immediately personally threatened than listening to homophobic dancehall records... i also think it does more to legitimise gays as a target for ridicule and violence.
although thats obviously not true for people actually living there. but in JA is seems there are more important things to tackle than music which is just a product of something more established.
i dont agree with his suggestion that being anti-war, or to acknowledge cultural differences, is backsliding on the universal application of human rights. self determination is a pretty important right. take the example of iran, has the US action in its neighbours helped to reverse the reformist tide of the past few years?
does he think the occupation enforces or supports the practice of human rights?
...maybe we should talk in the insugency thread?
i also think that the way his campaign has been represented, or the way alot of dance hall fans have come to hear about the campaign has lead to alot of them being alienated from the cause even where they might otherwise be open to the motivation.
the question of engaging with women is something i'd talked to some active queer girl friends of mine in london, but it could be a more personal issue...
thanks for puting me right on that.
i do still think that dancehall is a bit of an irrelevent target in terms of the representation of queers in the media ... and i do think he's missing an element of 'set your own house in order'. seeing "queer eye... " makes me feel more immediately personally threatened than listening to homophobic dancehall records... i also think it does more to legitimise gays as a target for ridicule and violence.
although thats obviously not true for people actually living there. but in JA is seems there are more important things to tackle than music which is just a product of something more established.
i dont agree with his suggestion that being anti-war, or to acknowledge cultural differences, is backsliding on the universal application of human rights. self determination is a pretty important right. take the example of iran, has the US action in its neighbours helped to reverse the reformist tide of the past few years?
does he think the occupation enforces or supports the practice of human rights?
...maybe we should talk in the insugency thread?
i also think that the way his campaign has been represented, or the way alot of dance hall fans have come to hear about the campaign has lead to alot of them being alienated from the cause even where they might otherwise be open to the motivation.