Abortion

N

nomadologist

Guest
mixed_biscuits said:
As Mr Tea said earlier, the problem is that there is another body inside her body - and the former is, more so than not, a separate entity (which is, after all, why you can usually cause it fatal harm with no long-lasting damage to its host).
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If a fetus is a separate entity, then why does it rely completely on the "host" body for its sustenance?

I've heard fetuses compared to parasites by hardline pro-choicers. And some scientists.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Babies are completely dependent on their mothers for several years, aren't they? And after infancy, children are still generally looked after by parents or carers until they leave home.

The argument that a foetus is dependent on another person applies just as well to young children. Hence my mention upthread of cultures where infanticide is acceptable in times of hardship. There really isn't too much of an ethical distinction between killing an advanced foetus and killing a newborn.

Edit: hang around some harrassed parents and you'll hear teenagers described as 'parasites'. ;)
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
mixed_biscuits said:
I still don't know why, if women are dead set against having a baby, they don't just make a special effort to avoid getting knocked up in the first place. Unless the pregnancy is forced, it's just a question of mismanagement.
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This is ridiculously stupid. There are hundreds of medical reasons why many women cannot take hormonal (the only close to 100% perfect) birth control. In this case, women are forced to rely on known-to-be shaky methods like condoms or the ever-popular "pull out" method (which actually more effective than condoms I've read in certain places). If men want to make sure that no woman decides to abort a fetus he helped make, then maybe men should stop telling focus groups that they'd never take perfectly safe, non-hormonal birth control. Because if they did, then big pharma would start investing in manufacturing the many viable ways men could, with literally no side effects, prevent themselves from causing pregnancy.

In other words: get a vasectomy if you're really worried. They're reversible.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Mr. Tea said:
Babies are completely dependent on their mothers for several years, aren't they? And after infancy, children are still generally looked after by parents or carers until they leave home.

The argument that a foetus is dependent on another person applies just as well to young children. Hence my mention upthread of cultures where infanticide is acceptable in times of hardship. There really isn't too much of an ethical distinction between killing an advanced foetus and killing a newborn.

Edit: hang around some harrassed parents and you'll hear teenagers described as 'parasites'. ;)
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When you have one in you, we'll see what kind of choice you make. Until then, talk about infanticide coming from you just sounds, well, silly to me.

I know men want to believe this, but there is no guaranteed "special bond" a woman is going to feel with an unwanted pregnancy. I know motherhood has been all mysticized to death and everyone wants to believe in that version of the madonna with the halo who sits on the top of the binary above the whore and everything, but it's just not true.

A wanted pregnancy is another story, I'm sure.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yes, I daresay I might have stronger pro-abortion feelings if I were ever to get pregnant. Once I'd got over the initial shock, of course. :) But that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion.

The point about condoms being less than 100% effective is well made, I think, and also one that I don't think has been mentioned so far.
 
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N

nomadologist

Guest
The efficacy of condoms is something I've heard often challenged. I know that the pro-choice, planned parenthood types like to push them hard for the purposes of controlling STDs, but as my aunt who has 5 children can tell you, they're less reliable than people think. This same aunt had her last two children after having her tubes tied TWICE, because both times it reversed itself.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
I have no problem doing that. Sex is nothing that special anyway. Especially with someone you don't like a lot.

Edit: Of course, even if I did that, it wouldn't mean that I am in the right situation in life to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. There are many many poor people who have no healthcare in the U.S. who couldn't afford birth control (and free clinics are drying up left and right) who can't afford to have children on the most fundamental financial level.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Of course, I expect you to do the same. Otherwise any abortion incurred is also, technically, your fault. Baby killler.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
mixed_biscuits said:
I agree! :D
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I will never understand why, without fail, men who participate in focus groups and studies into the commercial viability of male birth control SIMPLY REFUSE in staggeringly high numbers to even admit willingness to maybe TRY it for a little while. This is especially weird to me a) because men stand to lose so much in paternity suits, and b) because there are several medical strategies that are known to exist that can lower sperm count and motility temporarily at 100% accuracy rates with NO SIDE EFFECTS. For women, on the other hand, hormonal birth control radically alters their brain/body chemistry and causes many many terrible, unpleasant side effects--including (noshit alert) a severely lowered libido. My own mother after going off birth control spent a couple years having a serious of nervous breakdowns the doctor attributed to hormonal imbalance. After you go off the pill, it can take, well, forever to return to "normal."

Can you imagine what men would say if you asked them to not only take a birth control pill, but one that would make them gain 25 pounds, feel constantly irritable, constantly fatigued, and lower their sex drive to basically nil? Based on their reaction to being asked to basically take a placebo whose "effects" were 100% reversible, I can't even imagine...

EDIT: Other wonderful side effects of hormonal birth control for women include an increased risk of cardiovascular events (like heart attack and stroke) and breast cancer! Lovely.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
mistersloane said:
I knew it was a form of birth control, not heard about it being Italian though, that's interesting, is that lore or whre does it come from?
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I think from Roman Catholicism. My great uncle told me that who was from Italy! I've heard that Italian porn is unduly preoccupied with anal intercourse, so I don't doubt it.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Mr. Tea said:
2) Most of abortion's most vociferous opponents are women.
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Where the fuck did you get this idea? Anecdotally, in my experience, I have noticed that it's mostly men who care about this issue. I know a lot of women who claim they'd never have an abortion themselves, but most of them admit it's too personal and devisive an issue to leave in the hands of the government. Even then, these are, in every case I can think of, women who've never experienced an unwanted pregnancy.
 
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