If not capitalism then what exactly?

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
I don't refuse to admit that it is possible. I don't think that you're reading what I've wrote in this thread. Of course its possible. Why else would I have asked a question abhout it at the top of the page? I just don't think you've got any good ideas.
My idea is that what we need is economic reform, and to get there we need everyone to understand why. I disagree with your assessment of what the chief problems are, I think something more fundamental is amiss and those things will begin to take care of themselves when the currencies are not rigged (and backed by force I suppose, that's a thorny one). After that we can take it from there.

Either that or replicators (Star Trek style, not Stargate).
 
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noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
I think part of the thing is that we really don't have the system that we are purported to have. I suppose I would like to see what real capitalism and free markets actually look like in practice.
 

vimothy

yurp
Sorry I didn't realise that 'more efficient' actually means 'cheaper for us'.

*bangs head off desk*

1. Yes, we do have everything we need.

Do you live in the forest? You have everything you need now. Guess why.

2. Sellers of oil and microchips aren't doing so bad.

So what? You decide who's not doing "so bad", whatever that means, and we make everything else, hoping that we will still be able to afford to buy what we need but don't produce. "Everything will be fine". Fingers in ears...

I also assume that you will be setting up a committee to decide what goods are necessary and what are exotic luxuries. You might not think you're a leftist, but you're economic ideas are pretty damn similar to those of other noted autarkic states, such as the USSR and Nazi Germany. "They were the best of times, they were the worst of times." Or something. Good look with your project.

3. We use oil and source microchips from the far east because those are the cheapest easiest options, at the moment. It's not about management of resources, necessity, practicality, or any of those things, it's about the cheapest option.

*bangs head off desk*

Look at what you're writing. You are contradicting yourself. Why is it cheaper?!?!?!

4. We could quite easily make microchips here if we needed to and it wasn't so easy to get someone else to do it cheaper.

*sigh*

I give up. This is all getting silly.

Really? So how do we have agreement on the value of currencies now?

You're not talking about agreeing on the value of currencies, though (and not that that's process without its problems). Look at the EU. Could we have the Euro without Brussels?
 
Yeah I'm not going to bother with the point-by-points either. Partly because dissensus has decided to make it very hard for me to log in for some reason, probably for my own good.

I'm really not too sure where you're coming from now vimothy, although I accept that you are asking questions.

I feel that you are taking capitalism's acceptance of greed as a fact too far and actually enshrining it as a value or a god or something. Or maybe that is what capitalism is as I've said earlier.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I feel that you are taking capitalism's acceptance of greed as a fact too far and actually enshrining it as a value or a god or something. Or maybe that is what capitalism is as I've said earlier.

This is just the problem I've had in this thread: I've tried to start discussions along the line of "imagine a hypothetical company not driven purely by the maximisation of profits..." and then Vim's off on his Capitalism 101 lecture that starts "All companies exist for the purpose of maximising profits...". It's just futile. I was going to make some more points about how I think paying higher wages to the employees of (say) the clothes factory in Pooristan could, in my opinion, benefit the economy, not just the clothing-manufacture sector of the economy and not just in the short term, but I know he'll just answer me with his protected-wages-decrease-productivity-which-stifles-growth-which-perpetuates-poverty mantra.
 
K-punk said:
Communism, after all, is associated with a constructivist aesthetic: as inhumanly glamorous as anything Kapital has come up with.


To which we might punktifilously add: "The Lyotard of Libidinal Economy and Duchamp's Trans/Formers provocatively combines modernist aesthetics with Marxism to propose that the inorganic body of the proletariat - an artificialized body, utterly cut off from the supposed organicism of the peasantry, bred as a machine part in the labs of capital to withstand the inhuman conditions of the factory and therefore capable of a whole new affective range - is the greatest modernist product ever. Lyotard scandalised the bleating socialists of his day by writing of a proletarian jouissance: ' the English unemployed did not become workers to survive, they - hang on tight and spit on me - enjoyed the hysterical, masochistic, whatever exhaustion it was of hanging on in the mines, in the factories, in hell, they enjoyed it, enjoyed the mad destruction of their organic body which was indeed imposed upon them, they enjoyed the decomposition of their personal identity, the identity that the peasant tradition had constructed for them, enjoyed the dissolution of their families and villages, and enjoyed the monstrous anonymity of the suburbs and the pubs in the morning and the evening.' Programme for a post-Soviet constructivism: to extract this masochistic jouissance of artificiality, the inorganic and the anonymous from capitalism and put it to work for communism. "

And to which we might also add another word on overidentification. Russian avant-garde art of the early twenties (futurism, constructivism) not only zealously endorsed industrialization, it even endeavored to reinvent a new industrial man, one who was no longer the old man of sentimental passions and traditions but the new man who gladly accepts his role as a bolt or screw in the gigantic coordinated industrial machine. As such, it was subversive in its very ultraorthodoxy, that is, in its overidentification with the core of the official ideology: the human image that we get in Eisenstein, Meyerhold, constructivist paintings, and so on emphasizes the beauty of his or her mechanical movements, his or her thorough depsychologization. What was perceived in the West as the ultimate nightmare of liberal individualism, as the ideological counterpoint to Taylorization, to Fordist ribbonwork, was in Russia hailed as the utopian prospect of liberation. Recall how Meyerhold violently asserted the "behaviorist" approach to acting: no longer advocating emphatic familiarization with the person the actor is playing but instead ruthless bodily training aimed at cold physical discipline, at the ability of the actor to perform the series of mechanized movements. This is what was unbearable to, and in, the official Stalinist ideology, so that Stalinist socialist realism effectively was an attempt to reassert a "socialism with a human face," that is, to reinscribe the process of industrialization into the constraints of the traditional psychological individual. In socialist realist texts, paintings, and films, individuals are no longer rendered as parts of the global machine, but as warm, passionate persons.

K-punk said:
the Chinese pro-market anti-capitalist communism

Someone mistook markets for capitalism up-thread. Markets have existed for thousands of years (and money almost as long, money [mere payment capital] being profoundly different from abstract capital), and so would conceivably outlive capitalism, being essential to any mode of trade. Modern capitalism merely appropriated markets and money, as it always does most other things, to its foundational moments in the Cartesian, rational-empirical 18th century). I'm assuming K-punk is using "anti-capitalist" here in relation to its humanist supports - anti-parliamentarianism, anti-rural, anti-village ("Oh look! Twenty more destroyed this week to make way for gleamprog coal-fired power plants!"), anti-religion (delirial suppression of the Falun Gong, which, despite being founded as recently as 1992, when Chinese capital went manic, boasts 100m members - ie capitalism at its purest as anti-capitalist (real nice of the US to give it's currency a fixed exchange rate too). [Gek, the Chinese, notoriously, LOVE gambling (not sure whether this is due to present circumstances or a hauntological displacement from British-colonial opium trading times!), so there should be no shortage of them willing to take up strategic positions as hysterical rogue traders with the West's leading financial institurions. Can you organise the visas:eek:?]
 
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Vimothy said:
*bangs head off desk*

*bangs head off desk*

Malicious damage to private property. Tsk!

To err once, etc.

[Does your private medical insurance cover head trauma, that is, after your noble employer has deducted the desk-repair cost from your wage packet?]
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
[Gek, the Chinese, notoriously, LOVE gambling (not sure whether this is due to present circumstances or a hauntological displacement from British-colonial opium trading times!), so there should be no shortage of them willing to take up strategic positions as hysterical rogue traders with the West's leading financial institurions. Can you organise the visas:eek:?]

Indeed they do appear to- which is why their stock market appears to operate slightly differently to Western ones...

I think to aid Noel's point on efficiency/cheapness, of course Vimothy you are correct that price represents the cost of production, and in a very narrow sense, a one-dimensional sense the cheapest price=most efficient solution, but this is in terms of the market place only, in terms of factors included in such calculations. So an environmentally costly but cheap solution takes no account of the invisible externalities, which mean that in a global long term sense it is inefficient. The solution to this immediate problem would be to force the market to take into account such externalities obviously. Other factors are less easy to calculate (and less easy to force into the consideration of the market).
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Hundredmillion, your last couple of posts reminds me of a couple of my professors who are really into post-fordism and Lazzarato's "Immaterial Labor."

Who are you quoting there on Lyotard and the jouissaince of the proletariat? Zizek?
 
Hundredmillion, your last couple of posts reminds me of a couple of my professors who are really into post-fordism and Lazzarato's "Immaterial Labor."

Who are you quoting there on Lyotard and the jouissaince of the proletariat? Zizek?

Anorganic-K-punktilifilousmateriallessness. But, of course, under continued Big Other capitalism, its an ultimately suicidal jouissance. That's the problem, which the Chinese will find out soon enough ...
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Aside

Just read the following quote in a book I'm reading at the moment:

"Then I made up as a millionaire; but I defended Capital with so much intelligence that a fool could see that I was quite poor".
Seemed relevant somehow.
 

vimothy

yurp
This is just the problem I've had in this thread: I've tried to start discussions along the line of "imagine a hypothetical company not driven purely by the maximisation of profits..." and then Vim's off on his Capitalism 101 lecture that starts "All companies exist for the purpose of maximising profits...". It's just futile. I was going to make some more points about how I think paying higher wages to the employees of (say) the clothes factory in Pooristan could, in my opinion, benefit the economy, not just the clothing-manufacture sector of the economy and not just in the short term, but I know he'll just answer me with his protected-wages-decrease-productivity-which-stifles-growth-which-perpetuates-poverty mantra.

What's the point in trying? I'd say, if you really care about poverty in the third world, then you should be doing your best to ameliorate it. Instead you would rather opt for economic populism and policies that work against the grain of the system. The effects of fair trade should be obvious to everyone who can think their way through the "seen and unseen" (to use Bastiat's phrase). Fair trade fails for the same reasons that free trade succeeds. Mr Tea, can you not imagine a policy which actually does what it sets out to do? Can you not imagine a policy that takes on board neo-classical criticism rather than just ignoring it while saying "ah, but you're a capitalist, so you're bound to say that." I think it's fucking lame. There are some excellent people working to generate wealth in the third world and pull it from the poverty trap - people like Nobel Peace Prize winners Muhammad Yunus and Grameen Bank, who pioneered microcredit and microfinance to build development from the bottom up (rather than trying to force it on people from above) - but none of them work for cartels like Fair Trade.

Once again, if you're not prepared to engage in the argument, I think it's a bit rich for you to call me the ideologue. It seems pretty clear that you're the person who's committed to their own particular belief regardless of evidence or theory.
 

vimothy

yurp
The post-coherent left

Someone mistook markets for capitalism up-thread. Markets have existed for thousands of years (and money almost as long, money [mere payment capital] being profoundly different from abstract capital), and so would conceivably outlive capitalism, being essential to any mode of trade. Modern capitalism merely appropriated markets and money, as it always does most other things, to its foundational moments in the Cartesian, rational-empirical 18th century).

This is harder work than it should be. Of course communism is "anti-market", just as it's anti-capitalist, anti-trade and anti-money. Stop trying to obscure the bleedin' obvious. If communism is so pro-market, who the hell were Gosplan?
 

vimothy

yurp
Anorganic-K-punktilifilousmateriallessness. But, of course, under continued Big Other capitalism, its an ultimately suicidal jouissance. That's the problem, which the Chinese will find out soon enough ...

ravallion2a.jpg


Yes, I'm sure they will...
 

h-crimm

Well-known member
Either that or replicators (Star Trek style...)

isn't star trek a militaristic facist state? Where replicators owned by the state are used as a tool of enslavement and coercion to tie star fleet together? Where technology fails to liberate us from accusations of 'insubordination'? Where any assertive alien species which doesnt acquiesce to the imperialistic demands of THE federation is an enemy? Where women and earth's non-white majority are still condescended to?

not to mention that aesthetic judgement, cultural interests and technological development seem to have died a death.

i'm not entirely serious... but it does surprise me a little when people mention star trek's society (albeit in passing) as aspirational.

the vimoth vs the people debate doesnt seem to be changing anyones opinions so maybe we could try and find new ways to get back to the "what else?" of the topic: like talking about specific representations of post capitialisms. could we go for less immediate, less practical, more enjoyable ideas?

or maybe not.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
You know, I always thought Star Trek was pretty right-on (especially TNG, with its designated counsellor - how '90s was that? ;)): the crew was multi-racial, and a fair number of them were women in the later series.
And they tried to 'make contact with' and 'understand' alien races more often than they made war on them, IIRC.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
isn't star trek a militaristic facist state? Where replicators owned by the state are used as a tool of enslavement and coercion to tie star fleet together? Where technology fails to liberate us from accusations of 'insubordination'? Where any assertive alien species which doesnt acquiesce to the imperialistic demands of THE federation is an enemy? Where women and earth's non-white majority are still condescended to?
Ahem.

Yes, well I was only talking about replicators, which in Stargate SG-1 are something else entirely as I'm sure you well know.
 
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vimothy

yurp
If not capitalism then what exactly?

This probably beyond obvious -- you can't hide from economics -- but I thought that it was worth mentioning. If not capitalism, then probably rampant food-shortages and plenty of good old socialist corruption:

At first glance the supermarket off Avenida Francisco Miranda appeared to be a gourmet dream. Smoked salmon in the freezer. An aisle filled with Italian olive oil, balsamic vinegar and pesto. Another aisle stacked with Perrier, champagne and the finest Scotch.

But of milk, eggs, sugar and cooking oil there was no sign. Where were they? The question yesterday prompted a puzzled look from the manager. "There isn't any. Everybody knows that. Pasta is probably the next to go," he shrugged.

Welcome to Venezuela, a booming economy with a difference. Food shortages are plaguing the country at the same time that oil revenues are driving a spending splurge on imported luxury goods, prompting criticism of President Hugo Chávez's socialist policies.

Milk has all but vanished from shops. Distraught mothers ask how they are supposed to feed their infants. Many cafes and restaurants serve only black coffee.

Families say eggs and sugar are also a memory. "The last time I had them was September," said Marisol Perez, 51, a housewife in Petare, a sprawling barrio in eastern Caracas.

When supplies do arrive long queues form instantly. Purchases are rationed and hands are stamped to prevent cheating. The sight of a milk truck reportedly prompted a near-riot last week.

Up to a quarter of staple food supplies have been disrupted, according to Datanalisis, a public opinion and economic research group. To Chávez's detractors the scarcity is evidence that his revolutionary "21st century socialism" is driving South America's oil power towards ruin.

Government price controls on staple foods are so low that producers cannot make a profit, they say, and farms and businesses hesitate to invest in crops or machinery, or stockpile inventories, for fear of expropriations.

"We've warned about this from the beginning - all of these price controls in the long run end up producing shortages," Ismael Perez, of the industry group Conindustria, told Reuters.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
The reason for the shortage is vendors unwilling to sell at the fixed price (so either hoard them or sell them on the black market) and inflation (the result of a growing economy, yes?). In the U.S. corn and eggs and milk have doubled or even tripled in price in just a few years due to corporate welfare, ethanol subsidies, and higher fuel prices. Meanwhile wages are declining. Fortunately McDonalds still has a dollar menu -- but how long can these price controls last?

Food shortages are periodic in Venezuela. They are attempting to become self-sufficient in food production; a few years ago they were importing 70% of their food. Of course U.S. agribusiness is against that, hence the vitriolic gloating in the corporate media. People aren't starving in the streets.
 
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