Roiling football blather
- Thread starter crackerjack
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IdleRich
IdleRich
The game was surprisingly subdued though - I thought Roma would come right at them all guns blazing but instead they were happy to let United have the ball and the territory in the first half. Real lack of penetration from United while at the same time there was a sense that they would create something just because they had the ball the whole time which they duly did (eventually) I guess. After that Roma had a few chances to equalise but I'm surprised they didn't throw more at them from the start. I suppose that Roma had a totally different line-up from the last game which might explain that but I would have thought that the club itself and the fans would have been hungry for revenge.
By all accounts Arsenal were pretty good. I saw that clip where maybe the goalie carried the ball over the line and it seemed pretty clear that he did.
The Barcelona bandwagon rolls on - but they haven't faced Rangers yet, that will be a stern test.
that 442 can clean up in the league, and with enough practice could probably do as well as whatever cackhanded 451 variant ferguson will eventually use in europe
1-0 against as roma is not to sniff at, especially in the light of defeats to copenhagen, celtic, benfica, real betis? in the last few years
again concerns about how well they can nurture talent- think of rooney 2004 v 2007, and anderson not starting well
1-0 against as roma is not to sniff at, especially in the light of defeats to copenhagen, celtic, benfica, real betis? in the last few years
again concerns about how well they can nurture talent- think of rooney 2004 v 2007, and anderson not starting well
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IdleRich
IdleRich
Of course. It's a great result and a solid performance, they were completely in control - albeit without really threatening - until they went ahead. It's just that I was expecting fireworks in that match but the lack was more down to Roma than United. It was a fantastic goal as well and leaves them perfectly positioned to qualify from the group nice and early. I'm sure Ferguson is feeling pretty pleased with himself this morning.
Not too concerned about that. Rooney has had a lot of injuries and Anderson has only just arrived - got a feeling that he is not as good as they hoped. United have successfully nurtured Lee Sharpe, Ryan Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Butt, G & P Nev, Ronaldo etc during Ferguson's tenure, I'd say that is a pretty good record.
apart from the last (probably more queiroz than ferguson) all the others were from a very long time ago and half of those were crap, fairly thin for 20 years compared to wenger in 10, rijkaard in 4, even liverpool in the same period with crap management developed fowler, owen, gerrard, carragher.........the academy of football (sic) have contributed as much to their current side in the form of ferdinand and carrick (~£48m)
take anderson, if what you say is correct then it says little for them if they are disappointed by a signing who costs more than an entire arsenal XI (fabianski, traore, toure, djourou, clichy, diaby, fabregas, denilson, eboue, van persie can't be more than about £12m together) who could run close a utd first XI
i think anderson probably _is_ as good as the hype, even miserable dunga explicity rated him higher than kaka and ronaldinho, and the little i saw of him at porto would suggest he is a lot better than they were at 18/19
that could all turn to shit though
IdleRich
IdleRich
Eh? Which of them were crap? If they were so crap how come they formed the backbone of a side that completely dominated the premiership, was the first side from a non-joke league to lift the treble and consistently reached the later rounds of the European Cup?
Lee Sharpe was from a long time ago, Ronaldo (even if his development was "probably" down to Quieroz) was very recent, I was trying to illustrate a long period of successful development going from back then to now.
Let's hope you're right. In fairness Ferguson said that he's not as developed as they hoped, not that he's not as good.
two of them were sold to newcastle and everton and fetched about the same as titus bramble combined, and are now employed respectively as substitute clogger for fat cunt allardyce and as a sort of angel for dead children at the peoples (sic) dead children club
another was a complete waster finished by about 23
cristiano ronaldo alone cost about the same as that arsenal XI and isn't exactly an academy product, that he is queiroz' protege is common knowledge after the spat with van nistelrooy
altogether the long period of successful development is simply untrue when none of their first XI has come through the academy since the 90s
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IdleRich
IdleRich
Who gives a toss? That was after ten(?) years of first-team football in by far the most successful club in British football as well as who knows how many caps. I was talking about football not money, who gives a fuck what they were sold for afterwards? If you don't think bringing five youth team players into a club in one season and then wining the league (again and again) even though you "can't win it with kids" is good development then what would be?
To judge youth development by the price you get for them at the end of their careers seems perverse at best. By that logic we won't know whether Ronaldinho is a success until he retires to the US in 2012 and we see what his contract is worth.
Lee Sharpe played for them and England for seven years. He was instrumental in wining the Cup Winners Cup on their first year back in it and they sold him for four and a half million - even by your bonkers criteria he seems like a success for United.
Eh? Who said anything about the academy, you were talking about young players Rooney and Anderson and how they would develop at United. I said they might develop well like all the others I've just mentioned in the long period of successful development from Lee Sharpe to Ronaldo where they kept winning things with those successfully developed players.
hucks
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There's also something to be said here about "Rooney 2004 v Rooney 2007". He had an amazing Euros in Portugal, but that was off the back of a mediocre season at Everton. I remember a schooling they took at Old Trafford, where all he could do was dive in late on Ronaldo, and was lucky to only get a booking. Everton were terrible at the time, tho - and after they sold Rooney, they qualified for the Champions League.
Rooney looked great in better company with England, but had never done it week after week. You could argue that he still hasn't. Or, you could point to 23 goals last season and say that he is not Michael Ricketts all of a sudden, much as he wasn't Pele in 2004.
For the record, I'm not a Man U fan, and I love Rooney, mainly for his bravery and inventiveness. My point is that to suggest he hasn't improved since 2004 is nonsense. He was overrated then and underrated now.
Rooney looked great in better company with England, but had never done it week after week. You could argue that he still hasn't. Or, you could point to 23 goals last season and say that he is not Michael Ricketts all of a sudden, much as he wasn't Pele in 2004.
For the record, I'm not a Man U fan, and I love Rooney, mainly for his bravery and inventiveness. My point is that to suggest he hasn't improved since 2004 is nonsense. He was overrated then and underrated now.
this seems to employ righteous incomprehension in lieu of thought
the value of the former tends to be denominated by the latter, things like 'aesthetics' notwithstanding
true
this edges closer to the problem- ronaldo has been developed well compared to say, robinho at real madrid- and before rooney, nani, anderson he was the first example of their baby galactico policy of paying through the nose for the best young players in the world and using their own academy for revenue purposes (farming crap like krichardson and getting good prices for it)
there is a limited pool of talent there cos of the law stipulating that trainees have to live within a certain area of the team, so for the last half decade or so they have been trying to supplant it by thieving from foreign academies and offering contracts at 16, as was the case for the excellent pique who played today
the problem is shown by how they fucked up with rossi, who could have gone to any team in the world when parma were falling apart a few years ago, chose utd, was shifted about on loan while never getting a good chance until being sold for £6m to villareal and is already joint 3rd highest scorer in spain..........that might seem like a good outcome, except that it's a huge deterrent to any prodigiously gifted kids when they see his development compared to fabregas etc at arsenal
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IdleRich
IdleRich
My point was that you can't sum up someone's career by the price they command at the end of it. To dismiss someone as worthless who held a first team place for years in a multi-championship winning team is stupid. I'm not saying that P Nev is a footballing genius but he came through the United academy and formed an important part of an incredibly successful team for a long time. In my book he counts for a plus point in United's youth policy - are you saying he would have been better if he'd been somewhere else?
Well of course sometimes they succeed and sometimes they fail. After a long time you've finally managed to think of one high-profile failure. I guess that by your rationale young players will be looking at Walcott and thinking "he hasn't done anything, Arsenal obviously isn't the place for a young player to go".
crackerjack
Well-known member
Well that was all very cosy, if a little underwhelming.
I felt sorry for Matt Poom. Motson seemed to want to call him Porn, he had a nightmare on the first, and was unlucky on the others. And to top it all, he looks like the man-boy at the end of Come & See.
I felt sorry for Matt Poom. Motson seemed to want to call him Porn, he had a nightmare on the first, and was unlucky on the others. And to top it all, he looks like the man-boy at the end of Come & See.
jenks
thread death
Lescott has no first touch, an ability to lose the ball and a dodgy hair cut.
I know why i'm not over impressed by Lampard but does he deserve to be boo-ed?
Can someone smack Joe Cole until he stops his pointless step overs as well, please?
A win on Weds though is what it's all coming down to though.
I know why i'm not over impressed by Lampard but does he deserve to be boo-ed?
Can someone smack Joe Cole until he stops his pointless step overs as well, please?
A win on Weds though is what it's all coming down to though.
crackerjack
Well-known member
No. He's become symbolic repository for all the resentment of the ancien regime's under-achieving a-list rather than a-team selection policy.
The story circulating that he threw a wobbly when first left out a few months back - he threatened to fly back home, so McClaren pretended he was injured instead - did him no favours though.
A win on Weds though is what it's all coming down to though.
A draw should do nicely.
Wtf is up with that? I'm in favour of premature baldness, but don't go leaving a bit behind in the middle of your forehead.
hucks
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I was really unimpressed. Sure, being 3-0 up kinda means you don't have to try too hard, but there were some really awful performances, especially from Gerrard, and, when he came on, Lampard. I'd be really narked if McClaren went for both of them in midfield on Wednesday, as Hansen seemed to be suggesting he should.
crackerjack
Well-known member
I didn't really catch what they were saying (i've almost given up listening to BBC's football analysis), but I assumed they meant drop SWP and stick Stevie G out right. Or is the plan to push Barry out left and drop J Cole?
I hope not. The Lampard/Gerrard central partnership is a demonstrable failure and Mc would be nuts to go back to it.
I remember the made-up injury story, don't remember any allegations of wobbly-throwing though. Hadn't he broken his wrist? I'm sure he was wearing a cast for a while because of it...
I reckon it's only idiots who boo their own players anyway; at least during the match. It's not exactly going to make them play better (sounds like that was the case with Lampard today anyway, though I was watching the Scotland game instead), and aren't you supposed to want your players to do well? And if booing is the only way you can think of to express your disappointment with someone, then at least stay consistant! Don't boo someone when their name's read out and then go wild when they score a goal, like the England prats did against Germany recently.
And any talk of England changing the midfield four at this point is just silly. Obviously.
crackerjack
Well-known member
Story was he wanted to get the first flight back to England but stuck around when Mc promised to say he was injured, not dropped.
Re the booing thing - there's always been an element of it at England games, usually as much to do with club rivalry as player performance.
hucks
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Yeah, it's baffling. It's totally taboo to players at club level, too. They have to have dissed the fans, put in a transfer request and scored and own goal in the last minute of a derby before it becomes acceptable.
I dunno, some club fans are just as bad. The half-season Jokanovic was at Chelsea he got booed against Everton when Ranieri took Zola off for him (perfectly sensible sub too; we were hanging onto a 2-1 win and needed to shore up the midfield). Seriously, not even his bloody decision and he got booed every other touch he took. And then came 'sell him to Tottenham' chants. It was pretty disgusting...