A few things ...

vimothy

yurp
an easy to read article on china/america trade here = http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200801/fallows-chinese-dollars

and also, if you want a theoretical reassessment of comparative advantage, please read the pdf-format article on the thomas palley page entitled “Rethinking Trade and Trade Policy: Gomory, Baumol and Samuelson on Comparative Advantage,” Public Policy Brief, No. 86, Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, 2006 -- the link to the page = http://www.thomaspalley.com/?page_id=12

Will do. You might also like to read the Samuelson paper I assume that Palley is referring to (if you've not already, of course) -- Where Ricardo and Mill Rebut and Confirm Arguments of Mainstream Economists Supporting Globalization

And Baghwati et al's paper -- The Muddles over Outsourcing

While we're at it, I'll also suggest DeLong, Rodrik and Thoma as interesting heterodox voices on the free trade debate.
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
an easy to read article on china/america trade here = http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200801/fallows-chinese-dollars

Brilliant link Dominic, really enjoyed reading that and it explained a lot of things that I've been wondering about for a long time.

Will have some questions i expect once I've had more time to digest it.

EDIT: Off topic, you should have a read through the 'Political Economy of Democracy' thread if you haven't already - I'm interested to know your opinions Dominic.
 
Last edited:

vimothy

yurp
First, there are industries of strategic importance that America should remain active in -- like steel production, machine tool parts, computer micro-chips, airplanes -- all of which china does, save for the last.

Ok, so it appears to me that you fear some sort of future clash with China (what's that you say, a farsighted quasi-socialist dictatorship acting to bring down the global world order and impoverish itself and everyone else? Never), and for that reason you want America to stay active in industries of “strategic importance”. It’s not (just) an economics question, it’s a foreign policy grand strategy question, and it rests on an assumption. So maybe we should deal with that separately.

Of course, you bring up these industries because America is active in them, and you imply that you compete to your disadvantage. But, to take the example of steel, there’s a big difference between semi-skilled Chinese labourers producing low quality steel, and highly skilled, highly productive American engineers, working in a capital intensive environment, producing complex, expensive, super-steel compounds. American manufacturing is actually more productive than it's ever been (gross productivity), and continues to grow. Manufacturing jobs are lost to technology, not China. Alternatively, think of American agriculture – you have a very small workforce (like manufacturing, almost no one is employed in this sector), it’s very capital intensive, and it produces a massive amount of food. It’s what you are good at! It brings us neatly to another point that you raise:

Please define low and high productivity.

I would hope that this is not really necessary, since we are arguing with the same lexicon (or should be). I define productivity the same way everyone else does: the amount of output per unit of input. High productivity means more output per unit of input.

I’m not sure how "productive" lawyers and waiters and customer service agents are, so maybe you can enlighten me . . .

It makes no difference whether we are discussing services or manufacturing, high productivity is more unit of output per unit of input.

Let’s look at American versus Chinese productivity. American GDP in 2006 was $13,201,819 million, or just over one quarter of gross world product, which makes America the single most productive nation in 2006. PRC GDP (including Taiwan) for the same year was $3,068,071 million, or about one sixteenth of gross world product. If we look at GDP per capita, the picture is even starker. American GDP per capita for 2006 was $45,594 (9th in world rankings). PRC GDP per capita for 2006 was $2,460 (104th in world rankings). Therefore, the average American worker, in terms of their contribution to nominal GDP, was nearly nineteen times more productive than the average Chinese worker was in 2006.

That is the difference between high productivity and low productivity.

And as for comparative advantage, considering that China and America are both large continental countries with large populations (albeit China's much larger), I don't see how it is relevant.

It’s relevant because if you can both specialise in areas where you have a comparative advantage, you will both gain. If America specialises in high-skilled, high value-added sectors, and China specialises in low-skilled manufacturing, neither are competing in the same markets. And America can use all the wealth it derives from its specialisation to buy the cheap manufactures that are the result of China’s specialisation.

Manufacturing has shifted to China not because it has a comparative advantage in all kinds of sectors, but because in China WAGES are LOW and environmental regulations lax.

Dominic – that is China’s comparative advantage (or part of it, at least).

Second, Chinese industry is more sophisticated than you suggest, and many innovations will likely now occur in china, not the west, as china is now the site of production -- i.e., innovation is more likely to occur where something is being made than elsewhere.

Paul Romer says that, “human history teaches us… that economic growth springs from better recipes, not just from more cooking.” You seem to imply that innovation will happen in China but not in America, because China produces more, and that isn’t true. Innovation will hopefully occur in those sectors where China is productive and invests in human capital. America will continue to grow if it continues to innovate, and it will continue to innovate if it continues to invest in human capital. And whatever you think about politics, innovation is obviously not a zero-sum game.

Moreover, china now has so much wealth held in savings that its state companies could simply hire the best and brightest engineers and scientists to come to china and work for them.

Even if it’s true, so what? Good for them! America did the same for decades and look where it’s gotten you – worrying about threats from developing nations.

And the average American has not moved on to higher opportunity jobs in the meantime, but to low-wage service jobs. (Wages in America have been stagnant for the last 30 years.)

That’s what Paul Krugman thinks. What data are you drawing on? According to Thomas Sowell, summarising recent IRS data,

“People in the bottom fifth of income-tax filers in 1996 saw their incomes rise 91 percent by 2005. The top 1 percent … saw their incomes decline a whopping 26 percent. Meanwhile, the average taxpayers’ real income rose 24 percent between 1996 and 2005.”​
I also have a handy graphic:

mozscreenshot10.jpg


Cheap goods from China simply give Americans more opportunity to consume more.

That feels like a pretty loaded use of the term “consume”. But what does it actually mean, this increase in consumption-ability? In the article on growth, Romer mentions that in 1985, he paid a thousand dollars per million transistors for memory in his computer. In 2005, he paid ten dollars per million transistors. He can now do a lot more with the same amount of money. Americans can consume more, i.e. they have more resources to allocate in whatever ways they see fit. You don’t like the results of their actions.

Not only that, but American industries also consume. Thanks to cheap foreign goods, American firms have cheaper inputs, upping their productivity.

And, as it happens, fall ever further into national debt.

Wouldn’t know about that, but can agree that there is a lot of debt in this country. Is that really because of cheap foreign goods?

What does America make that China consumes???

I have no idea. Stocks and shares?

EDIT: Dollars -- of course!

Read that article last night. Powerful stuff: the financial inconsistencies alone are frightening enough, factor in adjusted levels of uncertainty and Chinese Communist Party opaqueness, and I'm buying up tinned goods and planning a long trip to the country ...

It certainly has some profound strategic implications. I wonder what Barnett says.

Ask yourself that question

Ok – what? And why do you want to know?


[Phew! More to follow…]
 
Last edited:

vimothy

yurp
The way I see it there are (at least) two ways of looking at this debate:

Trade status quo vs. Trade reform
Free trade vs. Protectionism

The problem is, however, that they are not identical.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
the global world order

The what now?

Vimothy, I should point out that this income mobility survey (a favorite of free-market acolytes for years now) the right-wing Sowell cites is horribly skewed, as are the past surveys of income mobility done by the IRS. These studies limit themselves only to households that paid income tax all 10 years: thus the very poorest, as well as anyone that slipped into the category of "no tax" over 10 years (which works out to about half of all households in the U.S) were excluded. Households able to pay income tax for 10 years do not represent a cross-section of the U.S. -- indeed, the methods self-select for those already doing better than average.

The other thing overlooked in this method is that incomes tend to rise with age. Someone in the bottom quintile who manages to keep paying income tax for 10 years almost certainly experiences a rise in income. This inflates the percentage change in income.

Also, with the top 1% -- isn't it possible that over time they invested their money in the market or in retirement funds exempt from tax -- therefore exaggerating their "income" level? Or that someone who cashed in a lot of stocks (how else do you get into that rarefied top 1% of income) obviously can't cash in the same amount of stocks every year. Wouldn't net worth/assets be a better statistic to work with than income?

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_rich_the_right_and_the_facts
 

vimothy

yurp
Interesting thoughts... (except the "right-wing Sowell" crap). My first thought would be, "but if incomes are increasing over time, wages aren't stagnant, whatever happens to the poorest group." This thread at Mark Thoma's blog discusses the original piece and Paul Krugman's original response. I think you might be right, I don't think it proves very much unless adjusted for age. This comment:

Why would we "normalize for age" - is it abnormal that people age, and gain experience as they do? That's the whole point, isn't it, that the differences in income among "quintiles" largely reflect differences between 20-somethings and 50-somethings, that experienced-level pay rises faster than entry-level pay?

What Krugman misses - or hopes we miss - is that the statistical propensity is not for the rich to move down. Whatever groups you have - quintiles, deciles, etc... - statistically, if most individual or household incomes are rising, then the upwardly-mobile individual or household will leave his group (and stop bringing it up with him) that much earlier if he started out in a low group to begin with. And whoever sees the biggest income gains will typically end up at or near the top. So by definition, if most incomes are rising and there isn't a cap by virtue of a steep progressive income tax, then the top rises faster than the bottom. But as long as incomes are generally rising across the board and there is absolute income mobility - which there undeniably is - then why do we want to fall for the shell game of comparing my gain to the gain of whoever saw the biggest gain?​

And this one:

Why would you want to normalize for age? Because the WSJ is trying to rebut the assertion that:
"you may have heard that the U.S. is becoming a nation of rising inequality and shrinking opportunity."

If in the post WW2 era, 60% of all people over the course of their careers went from the bottom quintile to the 2nd highest quintile, but in the last decade only 30% of all people went from the bottom quintile to the 2nd highest quintile, that would constitute rising inequality.

If executives made an inflation adjusted $100,000 in the post WW2 era, and retired on $60,000 (and thus may not have fallen out of the top quintile) but in the last decade made $1,000,000 and retired on $100.000 (and thus did fall out of the top quintile -- because the top had shifted so much), that would be rising inequality.

You need to separate out the effects of having a normal career, including entering and leaving the workforce, and compare now vs. then to see if the statement that "the U.S. is becoming a nation of rising inequality and shrinking opportunity" is true or not.​
 

vimothy

yurp
Ok, so,

What are good instruments for measuring wage growth / stagnation and income mobility?

What do these instruments show?​

It seems to me from my (albeit brief) readings that both sides of the debate are just recycling the same data-sets (Krugman is as tiresome as the WSJ in this regard), and neither can agree on any mutually legitimate sources.

Vimothy, I should point out that this income mobility survey (a favorite of free-market acolytes for years now) the right-wing Sowell cites is horribly skewed, as are the past surveys of income mobility done by the IRS. These studies limit themselves only to households that paid income tax all 10 years: thus the very poorest, as well as anyone that slipped into the category of "no tax" over 10 years (which works out to about half of all households in the U.S) were excluded. Households able to pay income tax for 10 years do not represent a cross-section of the U.S. -- indeed, the methods self-select for those already doing better than average.
 

vimothy

yurp
Income mobility arguments

Lot's of sifting to do -- thought I'd open up what I've got to the boards:

Movin' On Up - Editorial, WSJ

The WSJ goes green - Paul Krugman, NYT

Inequality and Income Mobility - Mark Thoma

Left Behind Economics - Paul Krugman, NYT

The Pattern of Growth in Income Inequality - Brad DeLong

Lazear vs Krugman - Greg Mankiw

Krugman raises a false alarm - Russ Roberts

Please Do Your Job - Russ Roberts

Immobility? - Russ Roberts

INCOME INEQUALITY IN THE UNITED STATES, 1913-2002 - T. Piketty & E. Saez

Has Inequality Increased in the US? Response to Alan Reynolds' article in WSJ criticizing our estimates, January 2006 - Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez

A Different Recession - Harold Mearson, WaPo

Not stagnant - Russ Roberts

Historical Income Tables - Families - U.S. Census Bureau

The Boskin Commission Report: A Retrospective One Decade Later - Robert J. Gordon
 

vimothy

yurp
The limits of data

Have done a little bit of reading. Although Krugman is very sure of himself, I think that he's as partisan as those he accuses, and never seems to acknowledge his opponent's argument or the limits of his own data. For instance,

I’d like to say that there’s a real dialogue taking place about the state of the U.S. economy, but the discussion leaves a lot to be desired. In general, the conversation sounds like this:

Bush supporter: “Why doesn’t President Bush get credit for a great economy? I blame liberal media bias.”

Informed economist: “But it’s not a great economy for most Americans. Many families are actually losing ground, and only a very few affluent people are doing really well.”

Bush supporter: “Why doesn’t President Bush get credit for a great economy? I blame liberal media bias.”

Lame. I've always felt that the best way to demolish and argument was to first present it as water-tight, then rip it to shreds, but Krugman can't be bothered to do that. Only an idiot would disagree with him, or a coward, or both.

In the op-ed, Krugman draws on Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, linked upthread, who show that,

even if you exclude capital gains from a rising stock market, in 2004 the real income of the richest 1 percent of Americans surged by almost 12.5 percent. Meanwhile, the average real income of the bottom 99 percent of the population rose only 1.5 percent. In other words, a relative handful of people received most of the benefits of growth.

All of which looks pretty bad. However, Russ Roberts makes some important criticisms of Krugman's conclusions. Most obviously that those groups are not made up of the same people as they were in the past. They are whoever falls into that particular income band at that particular time:

THEY'RE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE. Even if Piketty and Saez's numbers are perfectly estimated and analyzed, their numbers do not mean what Krugman implies--if you took the people in the top 1% in 2003 and added up their income, then did the same thing in 2004, the average rose by 12.5%. Piketty and Saez don't follow individuals. They just take the top 1% in each year. So what the numbers mean is the people in the top 1% earn, on average, 12.5% more than the people who were in the top 1% the year before.

Again, if you, for instance, compare the bottom quintile today to the bottom quintile in 1980, you are not comparing the same group of people:

The bottom quintile of families today includes a bunch of people who weren't there in 1980. Some of the families are recent immigrants to the United States seeking opportunity. Some of the families are young and just starting out. Some are the result of a divorce that has dumped one or both partners into poverty and it will take time for them to recover.

Even more importantly, Roberts reminds us that we need to look at more than one data point to draw our conclusions.
Here are the increases by decade, in the average incomes of the top 1% using the Piketty and Saez calculations:

1920-1930 23%
1930-1940 0
1940-1950 15
1950-1960 -5
1960-1970 23
1970-1980 1
1980-1990 71
1990-2000 46
2000-2004 -6%

What do you conclude from these numbers? One interpretation is that in times of strong economic growth--the 1920's, the 1960's, the 1980's and the 1990's for example, some people do really well, and that pushes up the incomes measured in the top 1%. Mediocre or negative economic growth is not good for the rich or other living things.​

From this I conclude that Krugman is probably no more reliable than his conservative counterparts (as a columnist -- he's definitely an interesting economist) -- simply saying that all this has been dealt with and that anyone who believes that incomes are rising or that in America the benefits of economic growth are distributed is an idiot or a shill is not enough -- and that it's easy to twist the data so they say whatever you want. But I guess I should have known that already.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"what the numbers mean is the people in the top 1% earn, on average, 12.5% more than the people who were in the top 1% the year before."
Yes, but I suspect (can't prove of course but would you disagree?) that there is a large overlap between the top 1% from year to year and even those that had recently entered were probably near to the top 1% the year before - the figures still seem to say that the very wealthy are doing very well in other words.
This bit is slightly disingenuous as well isn't it?

"Again, if you, for instance, compare the bottom quintile today to the bottom quintile in 1980, you are not comparing the same group of people:"
He's not talking about a demograhic that has had time to vary over twenty-five years, he's talking about one year. How much do you think the make-up of the bottom 99% (not quintile) of the US has changed in a year?
 

vimothy

yurp
Yes, but I suspect (can't prove of course but would you disagree?) that there is a large overlap between the top 1% from year to year and even those that had recently entered were probably near to the top 1% the year before - the figures still seem to say that the very wealthy are doing very well in other words.
This bit is slightly disingenuous as well isn't it?

There may be a large overlap, but the data doesn't address that. In fact, I wonder if there really is a large overlap. To echo Gavin, how does one enter the top 1%? I need to understand more about this.

And you're right, of course, the figures do show that the top 1% did very well in 2004, but that's all that they show. In fact, if you look at the decade beginning in 2000, the top 1% haven't done well at all.

He's not talking about a demograhic that has had time to vary over twenty-five years, he's talking about one year. How much do you think the make-up of the bottom 99% (not quintile) of the US has changed in a year?

But this is part of Krugman's larger argument -- an argument he has been making for some time -- that the gains of economic growth have not been adequately distributed and that "many families are actually losing ground, and only a very few affluent people are doing really well", and it all relies on the same source, the Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez paper I link to upthread, and whose, to quote Krugman, "long-term estimates of income equality have become the gold standard for research on this topic".

I know that Krugman is only discussing 2004, and that the totall added to the bottom 99% may not be significant (although, again, we don't know), but looked at with such specific focus, it's almost impossible to draw from that infomation anything about wider economic trends -- which is the exact opposite of what Krugman does. All one can say is that the top 1% earnt 12.5% more than the top 1% last year, and that the bottom 99% earnt 1.4% more than the bottom 99% last year. Where is the context? How does this relate to the business cycle, for example?

Krugman's implication is that the top 1% are somehow keeping all of the wealth to themselves, but it falls down if you look at the long term data in Roberts' blog (i.e. the Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez data Krugman also uses): good decades for the median family correlate with massive growth in the incomes of the top 1%.

I think Roberts is exactly right when he says,

The bottom line is that how the incomes of the top 1% move around is a complex phenomenon. it is foolish to look at one year and conclude that a small elite is keeping all the economic growth. I would also note that even if you wanted to change the distribution of income, it's hard to know which policy levers would be effective other than improving the educational system, a solution that Krugman seems to think is absurd.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Sure, I'm not standing up for Krugman, I'm just pointing out that to say "over 25 years the make-up of the bottom twenty percent has changed a lot therefore the make-up of the bottom 99% cannot be assumed to be vaguely similar over one year" is at least as spurious as the claims that they are trying to debunk.
 
Top