The Wire is over - discussion, spoilers inside
- Thread starter UFO over easy
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UFO over easy
online mahjong
N
nomadologist
Guest
Ok, here is where the fact that slang doesn't translate becomes ever more obvious.
In American slang, using "girl" "boy" "son" "man" "dude"--it's all the same, and it's used ALL the TIME in much the same way "like" is used, as a flavoring particle that is used to personalize speech, as a casual way of referring to someone.
Somewhat like "mami" or "papi" is used in Puerto Rican Spanish.
The addition of the word "girl" to that sentence is NOT a reference to her femininity, which I can state emphatically and without ambivalence based on the fact that I know and use American slang and it is completely natural to me. I understand it.
What "girl" in the context of the of the discussion in question actually signified was the intimacy between the two characters even as he was about to kill Snoop. It would be like saying "Don't hate me for this, baby" before killing your boyfriend or girlfriend.
The Snoop assasination scene was about how in a "dog eat dog" world like the ghetto you can't even be too angry with your best friend for stabbing you in the back, quite literally, or in this case shooting you in the head.
In the end, I probably agree with you: considerations of queerness can be completely left out of the discussion, along with discussions of "femininity", because neither have anything to do with the pathos of that scene.
In American slang, using "girl" "boy" "son" "man" "dude"--it's all the same, and it's used ALL the TIME in much the same way "like" is used, as a flavoring particle that is used to personalize speech, as a casual way of referring to someone.
Somewhat like "mami" or "papi" is used in Puerto Rican Spanish.
The addition of the word "girl" to that sentence is NOT a reference to her femininity, which I can state emphatically and without ambivalence based on the fact that I know and use American slang and it is completely natural to me. I understand it.
What "girl" in the context of the of the discussion in question actually signified was the intimacy between the two characters even as he was about to kill Snoop. It would be like saying "Don't hate me for this, baby" before killing your boyfriend or girlfriend.
The Snoop assasination scene was about how in a "dog eat dog" world like the ghetto you can't even be too angry with your best friend for stabbing you in the back, quite literally, or in this case shooting you in the head.
In the end, I probably agree with you: considerations of queerness can be completely left out of the discussion, along with discussions of "femininity", because neither have anything to do with the pathos of that scene.
There's no need to resort to epistemic privilege here. It's about interpreting the scene. I think an argument can be made either way. That's what's interesting about the scene--and the show, frankly. It opens itself up to multiple readings...
p.s. I know and use American slang too--and I disagree with your explanation. But that doesn't make your reading wrong.
p.s. I know and use American slang too--and I disagree with your explanation. But that doesn't make your reading wrong.
N
nomadologist
Guest
From Wikipedia:
She met the producers and writers of the Wire through the man who plays Omar, and they cast her for obvious reasons--she wouldn't need to go too far into method acting to get into her character. I think it's implied that she is a lesbian but not dwelled on because sexual orientation is largely irrelevant, although gendering oneself "male" is awfully helpful in a hierarchical, male-dominated business. The question remains whether this is necessary only insofar as it is a survival mechanism, or rather a set of biologically mandated preferences. Personally, I tend to think sexual preference is just that, the latter.
You could have an interesting discussion weighing the two options.
I prefer not to toss around words like "femininity" without qualification. To me it does sound sexist to refer to some fantom notion of what *true* femininity is--especially when that entails the same old cliched bullshit like "how do I look?" The implication when you conflate Snoop's interest in looking her best with femininity is that you believe in "femininity" in a traditional sense. Maybe you don't. But it sounded like you did, to me.
She met the producers and writers of the Wire through the man who plays Omar, and they cast her for obvious reasons--she wouldn't need to go too far into method acting to get into her character. I think it's implied that she is a lesbian but not dwelled on because sexual orientation is largely irrelevant, although gendering oneself "male" is awfully helpful in a hierarchical, male-dominated business. The question remains whether this is necessary only insofar as it is a survival mechanism, or rather a set of biologically mandated preferences. Personally, I tend to think sexual preference is just that, the latter.
You could have an interesting discussion weighing the two options.
I prefer not to toss around words like "femininity" without qualification. To me it does sound sexist to refer to some fantom notion of what *true* femininity is--especially when that entails the same old cliched bullshit like "how do I look?" The implication when you conflate Snoop's interest in looking her best with femininity is that you believe in "femininity" in a traditional sense. Maybe you don't. But it sounded like you did, to me.
N
nomadologist
Guest
So let's turn the tables--say there's a character in a show who is male but genders himself "feminine" according to socially constructed norms. Say he's about to be shot by his best friend and says "Do I seem tough?" The friend says "Yeah you seem tough, dude" and proceeds to shoot him.
Would "dude" be the operative word here? Would it be a reference to the "masculinity" of the "feminine" male character? I think it's pretty obvious it wouldn't, according to the semantics of the phrase. The "dude" would be a way of softening the statement, of creating one last friendly moment, a way of acknowledging the friendship bond they'd had.
But didn't you find the use of the "cliched bullshit" ironic? It seemed to play on the "traditional sense of femininity" that you are critiquing. The moment between Snoop and Michael--a man and a woman in a car, in the dark, with "Bartender" on the radio--it's quite a stereotypical heterosexual "romantic" scene. He says "You look good, girl" and shoots her, point blank, in the head. I think the scene challenges femininity, cliche, and expectations in a parodic manner. Again, the Wire is brilliant.
Check it--both of you are right!
Check it--both of you are right!
N
nomadologist
Guest
A man and a woman can't be in a car without sex being imminent and ineluctable?
Whaa...?
In the context of the scene, two close friends and business associates experience a situation that one would have thought should have been a surprise for Snoop. One would have thought that as Michael let on that he intended to shoot Snoop--when he asked her to pull over and reached for the gun--she would have been frantic, begging for her life, or at very least somewhat surprised.
In context of the scene, "How do I look?" is brilliant because what it really signifies is that Snoop saw this coming, that she saw it as inevitable. When the inevitable moment came, she wanted to go out in style. Who doesn't?
It was really a tribute to her keen sense of the character of others, and her knowledge that even seemingly good-hearted kids can shoot their surrogate mothers in the face for a few thousand dollars under the right mix of circumstances. I see Snoop more as a surrogate mother figure for Michael, if we're going to talk about female gender roles.
She was wise, not necessarily"feminine."
Whaa...?
In the context of the scene, two close friends and business associates experience a situation that one would have thought should have been a surprise for Snoop. One would have thought that as Michael let on that he intended to shoot Snoop--when he asked her to pull over and reached for the gun--she would have been frantic, begging for her life, or at very least somewhat surprised.
In context of the scene, "How do I look?" is brilliant because what it really signifies is that Snoop saw this coming, that she saw it as inevitable. When the inevitable moment came, she wanted to go out in style. Who doesn't?
It was really a tribute to her keen sense of the character of others, and her knowledge that even seemingly good-hearted kids can shoot their surrogate mothers in the face for a few thousand dollars under the right mix of circumstances. I see Snoop more as a surrogate mother figure for Michael, if we're going to talk about female gender roles.
She was wise, not necessarily"feminine."
N
nomadologist
Guest
Yeah call me crazy but I don't necessarily think of sitting in a car in the dark with a T-Pain song on as being particularly "romantic"...
Oh goodness, I wasn't suggesting that AT ALL.
What is the point in discussing multiple readings if you're simply going to insist that you're right? I think what you're saying is totally valid, I just don't think it's the only way of looking at the scene. I simply presented a different reading--a reading that plays on the image of a man and a woman in a car. The Wire plays on stereotypical images--from crime dramas, detective novels, various movies...at least in my opinion.
Of course "a man and a woman [CAN] be in a car without sex being imminent and ineluctable".
What is the point in discussing multiple readings if you're simply going to insist that you're right? I think what you're saying is totally valid, I just don't think it's the only way of looking at the scene. I simply presented a different reading--a reading that plays on the image of a man and a woman in a car. The Wire plays on stereotypical images--from crime dramas, detective novels, various movies...at least in my opinion.
Of course "a man and a woman [CAN] be in a car without sex being imminent and ineluctable".
N
nomadologist
Guest
He says "You look good, girl" after she asks him if her hair looks good. I think that's a pretty gangsta way to go out, asking the person who's about to shoot you how you look.
It's pretty much a gesture of resigned defiance.
N
nomadologist
Guest
Sure, there can be multiple readings of anything. I just think this reading you've been suggesting doesn't really stand up under scrutiny.
The gender performance of Snoop from the Wire is a really interesting subject and you could go on at length about it, but I really don't think that the writers were trying to set up any sort of underlying romantic tension between Snoop and Michael in that scene. Maybe some familial Oedipal type.
N
nomadologist
Guest
I'm not trying to pick on you personally, UFO, but when someone--anyone--starts going back to socially constructed gender norms and seems to conflate those with womanhood or female sexuality in reality, yes, I do bristle at that. It's annoying. Probably in much the same way it would be annoying for me to refer to the same old stupid cliches about what being "masculine" is supposed to be about according to traditional roles. (Like being too "strong" to cry or communicate emotions effectively...or being a quarterback and date raping the nearest sorority sister with roofies or whatever for shits and giggles...)
I get really sick of the idea that being a real woman entails caring first and foremost, or at least a whole lot, about how men think of your appearance. I get really sick of that. I get sick of hearing people say things like "all girls dream of their wedding day from the moment they're born" or "all girls want to be a princess!" etc
I get really sick of the idea that being a real woman entails caring first and foremost, or at least a whole lot, about how men think of your appearance. I get really sick of that. I get sick of hearing people say things like "all girls dream of their wedding day from the moment they're born" or "all girls want to be a princess!" etc