Dawkins' Atheist Bus

waffle

Banned
Well someone is for sure.
Let's see. Jambo, you seem like a reasonable chap, likewise Poetix, in the highlighted paragraph below what is Dawkins explicitly saying?
Same questions to anyone else who is reading obviously; Mr Tea, Nomadologist etc

They're too busy explicitly evolving.

re the ''purpose'' of Idlerich's continuing flaming, abuse, etc
1. There isn't one
2. The purpose is too mysterious to fathom
3. Neither of these/something else (feel free to state)

re higher purpose
1. The higher purpose of Idlerich's flaming is to pathologize his desire.
2. Although Idlerich's abuse can have a purpose it categorically is not the purpose of evolution (because it's de-evolving)
3. Neither of these/something else (feel free to state)
 

jambo

slip inside my schlafsack
Why are you so sure "agency" even exists, let alone that science needs to "explain" why it exists, Jambo?
I've not taken the position that it does. If you'd follow the whole thing, and you are forgiven for not doing so in detail, you'd see this is hypothetical and predicated on the assumption that it does. Several times I've expressed sympathy for the idea that it might not.

And I'm not terribly concerned that science 'explain' it. This is mostly in response to endless queries by IdleRich and Tea on what are quite simple points. Hence the sweat. ;)
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I've not taken the position that it does. If you'd follow the whole thing, and you are forgiven for not doing so in detail, you'd see this hypothetical and predicated on the assumption that it does. Several times I've expressed sympathy for the idea that it might not.

And I'm not terribly concerned that science 'explain' it. This is mostly in response to endless queries by IdleRich and Tea on what are quite simple points. Hence the sweat. ;)

Ok, I lost count a long time ago, and I just woke up so it's a little too early in the day for all this excitement.
 

jambo

slip inside my schlafsack
Just to recap nomad, for me this moved on to more general questions of unacknowledged religious attitudes amongst atheists. In particular re. holding the simultaneous beliefs that humans can have agency and engage in purposeful activity and intelligent design while themselves being the product of blind natural processes and chance. So for me what was interesting is what is implied by that and I contend that it is much closer to being a religious viewpoint than is generally acknowledged. So I'm not saying that there is agency in the universe but that many professed atheists do seem to believe there is and of course talk as if there is, whilst going out and bashing religios. ;)

Poetix was asking why agency should be considered a special case, if it exists, and one reason I suggest it might be considered so is that we have no theories at present that could predict it's emergence given knowledge of the initial state of the universe. So it would appear to function identically to a miracle.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Just to recap nomad, for me this moved on to more general questions of unacknowledged religious attitudes amongst atheists. In particular re. holding the simultaneous beliefs that humans can have agency and engage in purposeful activity and intelligent design while themselves being the product of blind natural processes and chance. So for me what was interesting is what is implied by that and I contend that it is much closer to being a religious viewpoint than is generally acknowledged. So I'm not saying that there is agency in the universe but that many professed atheists do seem to believe there is and of course talk as if there is, whilst going out and bashing religios. ;)

Poetix was asking why agency should be considered a special case, if it exists, and one reason I suggest it might be considered so is that we have no theories at present that could predict it's emergence given knowledge of the initial state of the universe. So it would appear to function identically to a miracle.

Ahh, I see. I agree entirely with the first paragraph. The second one I have a few reservations about...

Humans aren't really all that different from bacterial life forms that reproduce sexually. They just have more cells. I think the interesting development in evolution is from single-celled bacterial life/organisms to sexually reproducing bacterial organisms to very large bacterial organisms. Agency is not as interesting an idea, for me.
 

waffle

Banned
What about "intelligence" (high order neurological-cum-electrochemical processes) is especially resistant to the mechanistic determinism of the material world?

Nothing.

"Where thought conflicts with emotion, the latter is designed by the neural circuitry in our brains to win" ... Rita Carter in Mapping the Mind

Yes, we've almost been leaving out mediation entirely, language, planning (and that corresponding third little brain unique to humans, the 'hominid' brain encompassing much of the cortex that neuroscientists so like to talk about), structuralism/poststructuralism, the symbolic order, cybernetics, etc, abstract reason, abstract mapping, becoming inhuman, etc, etc.

Yes, nothing.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
What's revealing of your bias here I think is that you have apparently read my suggestion that a theory of the emergence of agency would look rather like what we might describe as metaphysical or philosophical theory, as an accusation of future failure on the part of science, which it wasn't. I do have further reasons for thinking this and ideas about it but I don't really think it's that important an issue to get into wrt the broader discussion, which is why I didn't elucidate at length in the first place.
I don't know why you say that, I've said several times that it is an interesting question as to whether or not science will be able to describe the emergence of agency (if it exists, something I've also stated I'm not sure about) in terms other than those stated. I expressed no preference for either, I guess some people might say that the one is more satisfactory while others may think the other is more exciting.
 

jambo

slip inside my schlafsack
Ok, I thought you had interpreted my saying that I suspected if there were to be a theory of the emergence of agency (if...) 'it will look a lot like a metaphysical or religious description just with rebranded metaphors' [strong emergence theory already does and is imo] as my implying that it would be some kind of failure on the part of science because, in your words, 'we might never understand it (that is the emergence of agency) in a way that made it cease to be magic.'.

I don't think it would be a failure, that's just how it might be, and we would have an understanding of it as good as we do of many other phenomena. And of course it wouldn't look at all like magic to the scientists because they will have described it with science words that will make them feel nice and secure. ;)
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Poetix was asking why agency should be considered a special case, if it exists, and one reason I suggest it might be considered so is that we have no theories at present that could predict it's emergence given knowledge of the initial state of the universe. So it would appear to function identically to a miracle.

But could you not say the same thing about many things that are far more complicated than pulsars (this being the example given upthread, AFAIR) but far less mysterious or intangible than agency - daisies, for example? Or cyclonic storms? Perhaps these things could be predicted using simple natural laws given the premise that a planet like earth should exist, but our planet may occupy just a tiny part of the phase space of possible planets allowed by the bare laws of physics - so some hypothetical intelligence asked why it failed to predict the existence of daisies could well ask "How was I supposed to guess that a planet with those exact physico-chemical properties would ever form?". And then there's the other point that, just because we couldn't predict it ('it' being daisies, intelligence, agency or whatever) with our current knowledge, that doesn't mean it's impossible in principle. It may be possible one day, in other words. Bear in mind that no so very long ago, if you'd told someone you could predict *exactly* where a cannon-ball would land, given a few simple bits of information (mass of the ball, amount of powder, wind strength and direction...), you'd probably have found yourself on trial for witchcraft rather sharpish!
 
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poetix

we murder to dissect
Er, what? Just because people (thanks to language and other perfectly "natural" phenomenon) do things for a perceived *reason*, it does not follow that people's actions are not determined by natural processes/mechanisms.

I wasn't making an argument to that effect.

I think we can talk about purposiveness without metaphysical or anthropocentric baggage, without positing it as a suspension of or exception from materiality, and without requiring the universe to be ever so much more freaky than we ever suspected, man. The language we need for this is the language of cybernetics, which identifies situations within a causal framework that we can meaningfully describe in terms such as "X in order that Y".

The alternatives are fairly unappealing: declare that wherever X happens in order that Y some freaky counter-causal power is at work, or declare that it is never meaningful to describe any situation as one in which X happens in order that Y (or that it is "meaningful" only on the basis of some fundamental misrecognition of what is really going on - I'd rather be eliminativist about "meanings" of this sort, given the choice).

So: X happens "in order that" Y whenever X (a process) is governed by a representation (Y') of a goal (Y) such that Y' is not a complete set of causal antecedents of Y (in other words, it takes something more than just Y' existing to bring Y about) and X maps Y' to Y with sufficient fidelity that, ceteris paribus, variations in Y' correlate with some statistical regularity with variations in Y. That is, roughly, the sense in which we say that a particular allele at a gene site is "the gene for" a particular characteristic expressed in an organism's phenotype. We don't mean that the gene directly determines the characteristic, but that it strongly correlates with the characteristic thanks to its "steering" function in the causal process that actually produces the characteristic.

Is this an anthropocentric projection of some linguistically-generated human illusion of purposefulness onto a fundamentally purposeless process? No, because what we are defining here as purposiveness is not a magical quality that we attribute to things that kind of sort of look purposeful to us thanks to our wonderful powers of ontological delusion. We're coming at this from the other direction: giving an account of purposiveness as a contingent property of (conceivably entirely deterministic) physical systems, and using that account as a starting point for describing what happens when human beings entertain purposeful notions and act on them (or come to believe, somewhat after the fact, that this is what they have been doing). Obviously the human case is about a gazillion times more mediated. But there is still a statistical correlation between my thinking "mmm...donuts!" and my eating donuts, which involves language as only one in a tangle of exceedingly convoluted causal circuits mapping the representation to the outcome.
 

jambo

slip inside my schlafsack
But could you not say the same thing about many things that are far more complicated than pulsars (this being the example given upthread, AFAIR) but far less mysterious or intangible than agency - daisies, for example? Or cyclonic storms? Perhaps these things could be predicted using simple natural laws given the premise that a planet like earth should exist, but our planet may occupy just a tiny part of the phase space of possible planets allowed by the bare laws of physics - so some hypothetical intelligence asked why it failed to predict the existence of daisies could well ask "How was I supposed to guess that a planet with those exact physico-chemical properties would ever form?".
Yes in itself it may not be very strong argument, but then it is an argument for the exceptionality (this might not be a word) of something that may not exist anyway ;)

However I would still say that in theory, pulsars, self-replicating entities, a class of things that daisies are a member of, and certainly earth type planets, could be and are quite readily predicted by mathematical models of the universe as we presently understand it.

I don't believe we could say the same of 'agency' or a thing of that type. And what is it? What else could we say is like 'agency'? Awareness? Will?
And then there's the other point that, just because we couldn't predict it ('it' being daisies, intelligence, agency or whatever) with our current knowledge, that doesn't mean it's impossible in principle. It may be possible one day, in other words. Bear in mind that no so very long ago, if you'd told someone you could predict *exactly* where a cannon-ball would land, given a few simple bits of information (mass of the ball, amount of powder, wind strength and direction...), you'd probably find yourself on trial for witchcraft rather sharpish!
Yes, that's what's interesting. So what is it that might be missing from the model?
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I wasn't making an argument to that effect.

I think we can talk about purposiveness without metaphysical or anthropocentric baggage, without positing it as a suspension of or exception from materiality, and without requiring the universe to be ever so much more freaky than we ever suspected, man. The language we need for this is the language of cybernetics, which identifies situations within a causal framework that we can meaningfully describe in terms such as "X in order that Y".

The alternatives are fairly unappealing: declare that wherever X happens in order that Y some freaky counter-causal power is at work, or declare that it is never meaningful to describe any situation as one in which X happens in order that Y (or that it is "meaningful" only on the basis of some fundamental misrecognition of what is really going on - I'd rather be eliminativist about "meanings" of this sort, given the choice).

So: X happens "in order that" Y whenever X (a process) is governed by a representation (Y') of a goal (Y) such that Y' is not a complete set of causal antecedents of Y (in other words, it takes something more than just Y' existing to bring Y about) and X maps Y' to Y with sufficient fidelity that, ceteris paribus, variations in Y' correlate with some statistical regularity with variations in Y. That is, roughly, the sense in which we say that a particular allele at a gene site is "the gene for" a particular characteristic expressed in an organism's phenotype. We don't mean that the gene directly determines the characteristic, but that it strongly correlates with the characteristic thanks to its "steering" function in the causal process that actually produces the characteristic.

Is this an anthropocentric projection of some linguistically-generated human illusion of purposefulness onto a fundamentally purposeless process? No, because what we are defining here as purposiveness is not a magical quality that we attribute to things that kind of sort of look purposeful to us thanks to our wonderful powers of ontological delusion. We're coming at this from the other direction: giving an account of purposiveness as a contingent property of (conceivably entirely deterministic) physical systems, and using that account as a starting point for describing what happens when human beings entertain purposeful notions and act on them (or come to believe, somewhat after the fact, that this is what they have been doing). Obviously the human case is about a gazillion times more mediated. But there is still a statistical correlation between my thinking "mmm...donuts!" and my eating donuts, which involves language as only one in a tangle of exceedingly convoluted causal circuits mapping the representation to the outcome.

I remain thoroughly unconvinced.

(A statistical correlation is now the same thing as a "purpose"...ho boy)
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
A correlation effected by "steering"*, yes. Correlations in general, no.

* You're acquainted with the etymology of "cybernetics", right?
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Look, if you bend the meaning of purpose until it means simply "in order to", then of course, sure, yeah, you can think that some mechanical processes have a "purpose" (of course, this "purpose" is only ever evident AFTER THE FACT, but ehh I suppose this doesn't matter).

But I don't find that sort of semantic gymnastics very interesting.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
A correlation effected by "steering"*, yes. Correlations in general, no.

* You're acquainted with the etymology of "cybernetics", right?

The etymology? As in, the origin of the word cybernetics? Why, yes, I am, because I've studied Greek. And German. (I see this is a German word but ultimately comes from kubernetes...)

And this is relevant because...?
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't believe we could say the same of 'agency' or a thing of that type.

OK, I'm not saying I think that's an inherently untenable position but it does seem to me that you're holding it mainly because of an intuitive hunch, the idea that intelligent agency strikes you as so 'special' in some way that it's in a qualitatively different category of phenomena from (say) biological reproduction or even sentience.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
OK, I'm not saying I think that's an inherently untenable position but it does seem to me that you're holding it mainly because of an intuitive hunch, the idea that intelligent agency strikes you as so 'special' in some way that it's in a qualitatively different category of phenomena from (say) biological reproduction or even sentience.

Yeah. What is "agency" other than just any action on the part of a sentient being? Let's all remember that even rats are self-aware. Self-awareness is not a uniquely human characteristic.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
"Where thought conflicts with emotion, the latter is designed by the neural circuitry in our brains to win" ... Rita Carter in Mapping the Mind

Yes, we've almost been leaving out mediation entirely, language, planning (and that corresponding third little brain unique to humans, the 'hominid' brain encompassing much of the cortex that neuroscientists so like to talk about), structuralism/poststructuralism, the symbolic order, cybernetics, etc, abstract reason, abstract mapping, becoming inhuman, etc, etc.

Yes, nothing.

Mediation is interesting, for sure. What's most interesting to me about humans is how little they resemble the notion of the human that humanists hold in such high esteem.

The hominid brain is an unhappy accident, not a happy one, imo.
 

jambo

slip inside my schlafsack
Mr. Tea said:
OK, I'm not saying I think that's an inherently untenable position but it does seem to me that you're holding it mainly because of an intuitive hunch, the idea that intelligent agency strikes you as so 'special' in some way that it's in a qualitatively different category of phenomena from (say) biological reproduction or even sentience.
Sorry, what position are we referring to specifically as not being inherently untenable and that I am apparently holding mainly because of an intuitive hunch?

I think a proof could be provided but honestly I'm not so interested in doing so for something I'm not sure I believe exists anyway!

Still I think we can say that biological reproduction, daisies, pulsars and commemorative statuettes of liberty do not require additional explanation for their existence and could in type be predicted or explained by our models. 'Agency' and indeed sentience which is a similar kind of thing, can not. We don't even know what they are, except to say that agency might be an illusion.
 
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