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gumdrops
29-03-2005, 12:43 PM
http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com/2005/03/go-on-then.html

"I was listening 1Xtra's audio of dancehall's Sting event in Jamaica yesterday and was really struck by the lyrical differences between grime and dancehall. Although Jamaica may well have more guns, through religion there is still a conscious voice in dancehall, telling the gunmen to put their weapons down. The lyrics, on the whole, are fixated by/directed towards women.

Grime, perhaps London's equivalent voice, on the whole has no conscious side, especially live, and lyrically is almost without exception fixated by/directed towards other men.

I'm also haunted by something drum & bass artist Klute said in a biog interview with me late last year. Drawing on his experience of punk yet describing the current state of d&b, he commented on how scenes that rev themselves up often find it a dead end. Ultimately, revving is a cul-de-sac, where as the energy levels rise, the only thing left for them is to rise yet further before ultimately stalling.

Apply this to grime and you wonder where we're headed. Dynasty's set on Cameo the other week just descended into shouting. Roll Deep on Westwood has had me mesmerised for the days since it happened, but Skepta's lyrics - that generated huge response from the Entourge - are of concern. How can "go on then/go on then/Go on then/GO ON THEN/GO ON THEN!!!!!" be adept lyricism? Sounds like revving to me… and no one wants grime to stall."

-----


Personally, I don’t think grime MCs prize lyricism as highly as dancehall DJs or hip hop mcs. There isn’t much emphasis on saying something of worth, coming up with content. Arguably hip hop MCing is all about repeating the same themes over and over but in fresh ways, the triumph of saying something utterly vacuous as inventively as possible, but grime MCing, like previous pirate/rave MCing, is still more about style, rather than substance.

I suppose the problem for me comes when the MCs don’t maintain such high standards of style. I don't find Riko nearly as brilliant on record as I do when seeing him at raves or hearing him on Rinse. It seems that when making songs, this becomes most apparent. Here, most Grime MCs lose what makes them such compulsive listening on pirates - the energy, the frenzy, the endless room to MC as long as they can without interruption, except another MC to do the same, etc. Tunes that have kept the energy - SLK's Hype Hype remix or Lethal B's Fwd Riddim somehow sound a bit ridiculous out of the confines of a pirate session, even though one of their calling cards, at least in Lethal’s view, is to transfer the pirate format into a song. But strapped into less than five minutes on record away from the electricity of Rinse or Freeze or Déjà vu, they don’t sound so ephemeral anymore. So to me at least, the MCs sound a tad silly as they have little to say for themselves, or little to say with anything resembling panache. Many of them don’t sound that amazing as pure MC poetry either (even D Double, who usually, I don’t care what he says as he just sounds so good spitting complete gibberish isn’t at his best IMHO).

I think grime MCs are kinda like freestyle-oriented MCs in hip hop - Craig G, Supernatural, Juice, etc - who are fantastic running with the vibe and improvising on radio sessions or live on stage. Placed within a song format though, they generally flounder within the limits of the verse-chorus-verse pop song format. In this respect, grime MCs are maybe like early hip hop MCs, who were used to rapping for half an hour at a time, with no hook or chorus or break, before they had to compact their rhymes into pop song formats. Most of those MCs were lyrically somewhat superficial too and like UKG MCs, started off hyping the DJ or the party, then became the stars themselves. Perhaps the next wave of grime MCs will react to this current school, and come with more ‘content’ (for lack of a better word), but considering the stance of the ‘youngers’ that are emerging, it seems that somewhat vacuous lyrics will be the preference. In a way, the priorities of the post-rave MC continuum remain intact.

stelfox
29-03-2005, 12:53 PM
well, i'm biased but i do think that dancehall at its best - especially at its slackest, rougest and daftest - is unparralelled in terms of lyrical flow and inventiveness.

Noah Baby Food
29-03-2005, 01:16 PM
http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com/2005/03/go-on-then.html

In this respect, grime MCs are maybe like early hip hop MCs, who were used to rapping for half an hour at a time, with no hook or chorus or break, before they had to compact their rhymes into pop song formats. Most of those MCs were lyrically somewhat superficial too and like UKG MCs, started off hyping the DJ or the party, then became the stars themselves. Perhaps the next wave of grime MCs will react to this current school, and come with more ‘content’ (for lack of a better word), but considering the stance of the ‘youngers’ that are emerging, it seems that somewhat vacuous lyrics will be the preference. In a way, the priorities of the post-rave MC continuum remain intact.


Yep, totally agree with this. I love grime down to the bones, it excites the living shit out of me. But we must keep it real...some of the MCing is very, very wack. I really like some of the wack stuff, but recognize it's wack.

"I don't care if you shot two keys of punk blud/I'll beat you up"

But yeah. it's early days, people are learning their trade. Before Rakim emerged there were a hundred Big Bank Hanks, let's not forget. And there are some very, very good MCs on the scene even by hip hop's wordier standards.

Speaking as an MC who's used to flowing long sentences over 90bpm, it's a totally different discipline spitting short bars over 140bpm. Trying to get some actual content in there can be tough.

Also, vaguely related...this gets me thinking, maybe we can all be a bit under-critical of grime as we want it to do well...gets me thinking about the amount of "influence" from mainstream US hip hop that doesn't get picked up on. Examples:

Fumin's catchphrase: "What What?"
NORE's catchphrase: "What What?"

D Double: "OOOOUURRRRRRHHHH..." (or however you choose to spell it)
Master P: "UNNNGGGHHHH..."

That Essentials (I think) track with all that "state your name gangsta" business...this is DIRECTLY NICKED from "World War III" by Ruff Ryders feat Snoop, Jada', etc. A boss track, btw.

I would chance the suggestion that a lot of cats on blogs or whatever don't know any of this, coz back in day they were listening to Lyricist Lounge or something, not Ruff Ryders/Cash Money/No Limit etc, like cool old me was at the turn of the millennium. So nerrr!

Tactics
29-03-2005, 01:18 PM
Within BreakBeat, we were jus talking bout this a couple of days. The general consensus was that NUKG/Garage is more a triumph of style over substance. An MC could have the best lyrics in the world but still not get as much hype as another MC who comes off saying 'HYPE HYPE!!' which to me is ridiculous. This is why a lot of the time I can't take Garage seriously.

Your point about the youngers is important though. Looking up to hype MC's is a problem as from what I've seen they jus seek to emulate them but you can never underestimate the youth....we may seem lyricism become a priority in the future....hopefully lol......

stelfox
29-03-2005, 01:25 PM
now, i don't think we can really say that things are directly nicked from anything in grime. this is where the whole point of the hardcore 'nuum and my basic idea that ragga is absolutely at the centre of it comes into its own. grime interpolates lyrics, melodies and motifs from outside sources in much the same way dancehall does - it's part of the way it operates. sure it's a good spot but i think to a certain extent using terms like "ripped" and "nicked" misses a big part of what grime is actually all about.

gumdrops
29-03-2005, 01:33 PM
x-post, yeah, a lot of journos forget that Essentials' HQ track was completely copped from Ruff Ryders. Not sure about Fumin copying NORE’s phrase or DEE borrowing Master P’s ‘uhhh’ phrase though. Im not so bothered about them nicking little things here and there though - that's fine, dancehall artists borrow from Us artists too. Most grime MCs make it their own, its not slavish copying. Demon does sound disturbingly like Freeway though. He needs to come up with his own style. Im surprised no ones called him out on it yet.

What I find strange/worse is people making excuses for grime MCs like Bruza, who is essentially a terrible MC, yet in the wire, Reynolds praises him for having a “true British flow” and a sense of timing that’s almost 'not a flow'. No flow is not a good thing! Copying American flows IS pathetic, but possessing NO flow is equally bad. I mean, Dizzee flows. Lethal B used to flow back in the More Fire era until he started shouting and screaming too. Kano flows. Well, most of the time.

Noah Baby Food
29-03-2005, 02:06 PM
Yeah, I hear ya folks. Not saying a "direct steal" as such, just there's biiiiig influences there that don't always get brought up.

I don't know about all this "hardcore continuum" crack you lot go on about really. Dare I suggest it sounds a little, maybe, pretensious? (awaits abuse..hehe). I'll have to mull it over. But, in the words of LCD Soundsystem, "I was there"...hehe....

The mainstream US hip hop influence though: this is pretty major. I lived in Walthamstow in 2000 and I can definitely see the progression to grime from what the yoofs were rocking back then. And the white liberal media never picked up on this at the time - (similar, with "bling" being such a big word in mainstream UK media recently...how many of those using it have heard "Bling Bling", an AWESOME track by BG which ORIGINATED the term?). Let's not forget Dizzee's favcourite producers are DJ Paul and Juicy J from Hypnotize Minds. A lot of you cats probably agree with me, but "commercial" hip hop has been the most sonically interesting form for years. Heard some of that Madlib stuff at the weekend and BY GOD i hate all that nonsense...anyway, tangent...

...just sometimes I think people try and bracket the music they currently like according to what they wish it HAD descended from, rather than seeing its genuine roots.

stelfox
29-03-2005, 02:43 PM
I don't know about all this "hardcore continuum" crack you lot go on about really. Dare I suggest it sounds a little, maybe, pretensious? (awaits abuse..hehe). I'll have to mull it over. But, in the words of LCD Soundsystem, "I was there"...hehe...

well it's all very basic common sense, really. and with the exception of some of the americans on the board, constrained by geography, and a couple of us who were too young, we were all there, too, so do know what we're on about.

Noah Baby Food
29-03-2005, 02:48 PM
And I'm not dissing you either. Like I say, I'll give the whole thing some thought.

gumdrops
29-03-2005, 02:51 PM
id venture that in the same way hip hop was a reaction to disco, funk and soul, just as much as it used all those things for its foundation, grime is as much a reaction to UKG, jungle, drum n bass, rave etc as it forms them into its grounding.

cooper
29-03-2005, 05:03 PM
x-post, yeah, a lot of journos forget that Essentials' HQ track was completely copped from Ruff Ryders.

This is because a lot of said journos would rather steal off blissblog/silverdollarcircle and go back to safe hip genres that send them nice 1-sheet promo blurbs to regurgitate. Seriously, the level of lazy-ass critical bandwagoneering in the US has reached a nadir with this grime blip (Vivian from XLR8R said Run the Road NYC was split like oil and water between fans mashing up and critics looking on, one of whom was actually stroking his goatee.) Jess's article, mind you, that was some good shit.

So is it appropriate to transplant US hip-hop lyrical values onto UKG, that's the question. Klute by way of Martin's commentary on jungle/punk revving up is the most interesting part of that post and the one I think this thread lost. Punk was arguably most exciting because it ditched the bloat of "stairway to heaven" "hotel california" big-prog-rock etc. and stripped it down to "let's fuck" "i wanna sniff some glue" "fuck ronald reagan"? By the same token I find lots of grime MCs exciting because of the tone and timbre of their voices and the directness of their lyrics - you don't hear people going for Nas-like extended metaphors but rather even Dizzee and Wiley's big lines are little quick things - "twist an MC like David Platt!"

Ultimately I think it'll be a matter of cycles - I find both styles of MCing interesting and enjoyable, especially when they're juxtaposed. Compare hip-hop's coexistence of early jay-z / biggie / nas lyrical sophistication with the upfront menace and deliberate simplicity of no limit - but the greatness of that 90s era has certainly given way to a barrage of shit rap, hasn't it? Only stuff that's good now is crunk - the lyrically complex stuff has built up so much dogma that it feels dead-ended, and it makes me wonder if that kind of cycling leads inexorably towards a nadir, as in prog-rock(maximalist)->punk(minimalist)->80s synth(maximalist)->grunge and it's all downhill from there as rock ate itself ever faster.

So grime has at least a cycle or two in it, that's what I think.

simon silverdollar
29-03-2005, 05:10 PM
I find lots of grime MCs exciting because of the tone and timbre of their voices and the directness of their lyrics - you don't hear people going for Nas-like extended metaphors but rather even Dizzee and Wiley's big lines are little quick things - "twist an MC like David Platt!"

.


i agree. who cares whether bruza can MC or not; when he says 'get me' it sounds good and it sounds exciting. that's more than good enough. it like asking whether jello biafra can sing: it's not really the point.

but even if MC skill and content is yr thing, i think that for such a small, localised scene to have produced people like dizzee, riko, sharkey major, doogz, kano, trim, wiley, and d double in such a small space of time is pretty remarkable.

gumdrops
29-03-2005, 05:28 PM
i dont expect grime MCs to be on the level of nas or rakim, grime MCs arent lyrical on the whole and i see nothing wrong with that as long as they have great flows and all the other things in place (e.g - i love twista just cos of how he sounds, i dont care what hes saying). when those things arent present though, thats when i have problems. sloppiness is sloppiness.

Noah Baby Food
29-03-2005, 05:39 PM
Props Cooper, that nails it in my opinion. The analogy with prog rock/punk rock is spot on. and damn right, it's about character, delivery and so much more than backpacker Worthy Lyrical Skill. different set of values and all that jazz. but yeah, when things are mixed together it's ace...clever wordplay tricksy stuff mashup with hype basic aggro-styles...


Thing with Bruza though...he's actually really fucking good, on a "proper" MC level. like Jay Z, he's got a lot of clever wordplay and syllablistic stuff that you maybe don't notice on first hearing. that's an MC's MC, as well as having the CRAZY HYPE necessary to excite.

gumdrops
29-03-2005, 05:41 PM
ha, no ones saying they want grime MCs like sage francis or saul williams!

Noah Baby Food
29-03-2005, 05:49 PM
hahaha...

slightly unrelated: would like to see some grime MCs murking Blade. I fucking despise that shitty excuse for an MC. "You've been around for years mate...WELL DONE. Oh, are you writing a new song about being true to your sound and staying positive? Shit, how did you ever think of that?". For me, he stands for everything that is dull, restrictive, pious, "worthy", pointless and SAFE about hip hop. Just coz he's been around for yonks, the dude is BAIT. He should quit. Let's unleash Scratchy and Trim on him or some shit. Fuck, I'd do it meself.

Sorry everyone, but I really hate Blade, and what that shit stands for, and most of his audience. that to me is the polar opposite of all that's exciting 'bout grime.

has anyone heard that new Blade track on Channel U? fake Premier beat, lyrics all about how's he stuck at it for years. makes me wanna kill...

gumdrops
29-03-2005, 05:57 PM
HAHAHA, blade has been boring the pants off me for over a decade! boringest MC in british hip hop, EVER! only black twang are duller.

i wouldnt mind hearing some UKHH MCs over grime - roots manuva, skinnyman, rodney p, fallacy, these guys would murk over a good grime beat. roots has already done it over a jammer remix, and he was really good on there. he altered his flow perfectly for it too. i would say that would be perfect, as youd get people who have something to say over grime production, but i fear i may get abused. ;)

soul_pill
29-03-2005, 07:26 PM
Fallacy is on the Virus Syndicate album ... hear it here:

http://www.planet-mu.com/discog/ziq120/ziq120_major_list_mcs_hi.mp3

captain easychord
29-03-2005, 07:56 PM
ha, no ones saying they want grime MCs like sage francis or saul williams!

too late, we've already got l-man.

Tactics
29-03-2005, 08:10 PM
HAHAHA, blade has been boring the pants off me for over a decade! boringest MC in british hip hop, EVER! only black twang are duller.

i can understand blade but blak twang? dull? this is another reason why garage grates a lot of the time with me - the fans. There is hardly an MC in garage who could stand next to Twang....flippin hell lol...how can Rotton be mentioned in the same breath as Scratchy lol...nuff jokes man...sorry to abbreviate your post.

blissblogger
29-03-2005, 08:48 PM
Bruza is an incredible MC, i cannot believe the lack of love this guy receives, he has a totally unique sense of rhythm, the way he manages to sound lumbering and yet swing at the same time...

am i hallucinating or does he really end the chorus of 'not convinced' with "you spit like Agnes B"? if so that is pure genius

the punk rock analogy is spot on -- one great catchphrase is worth an acre of densely encrypted and elliptically scanned rhymage

it's the same in American rap, 'throw them 'bows" > the entire corpus of prosody from whichever embittered backpacker icon you wish to nominate

Clubberlang
29-03-2005, 09:55 PM
x-post, yeah, a lot of journos forget that Essentials' HQ track was completely copped from Ruff Ryders.

This was a pretty minor borrowing ya know as only the "state your name bit" was copped (their are no follow up questions on the Ruff Ryders track and the beat/tempo/everything else except that fact that a bunch of MCs are on it is completely different and even the question itself is asked in relatively understated way esp. compared to the OTT way its asked on the Essentials track.) This isn't like that "London" song where the entire track is a wholesale imitation of Ja Rule's "New York". I can see why it didn't register.

mpc
29-03-2005, 09:57 PM
the way he manages to sound lumbering and yet swing at the same time...


that's totally by accident.

he isn't a fluent MC because he's not very good.

i find his MCing awkward-sounding.

boy better know
29-03-2005, 10:34 PM
This was a pretty minor borrowing ya know as only the "state your name bit" was copped (their are no follow up questions on the Ruff Ryders track and the beat/tempo/everything else except that fact that a bunch of MCs are on it is completely different and even the question itself is asked in relatively understated way esp. compared to the OTT way its asked on the Essentials track.) This isn't like that "London" song where the entire track is a wholesale imitation of Ja Rule's "New York". I can see why it didn't register.

nah, they ask exactly the same questions on both tunes. go back and listen to the ruff ryders one again.

i don't really think essentials were trying to copy the song and hope no-one noticed. i'd see it as more of a tribute.

Clubberlang
29-03-2005, 10:51 PM
Woops your right, I completely spaced on the rest of it. Either way that's really the only lift.

3underscore
29-03-2005, 10:58 PM
Bruza is an incredible MC, i cannot believe the lack of love this guy receives, he has a totally unique sense of rhythm, the way he manages to sound lumbering and yet swing at the same time...

I say the same about my bass playing Blissblogger, but it ain't got me nowhere! ;)

blissblogger
30-03-2005, 04:35 PM
he's called Bruza for a reason
the voice is fully integrated with the persona
this lumbering menace, the lurching flow, the bullying bulk of his voice
it's pure genius
and totally distinctive, a true original

i mean, yeah he's shit, you're right -- that must be why he's on so many big tracks with the other big boys, they feel sorry for him, it's charity isn't it, don't want him to feel left out!

i think you've internalized american ideas of what a good mc is

a great flow does NOT always equate with fluency and fluidity

just as good guitar playing does not necessarily equal slippery frictionless playing a la Mark knoplfer

i'd say bruza's more like Greg Ginn in Black Flag, or a neil young solo

the mis-shapen, ungainly quality = expressive of emotion more than flowery grace

Noah Baby Food
30-03-2005, 04:47 PM
Yes, good call blissblogger. Greg Ginn...maybe Pat Smear from the Germs...or Ted Falconi from Flipper.

and that Essentials thing...not saying the track is like a big rip-off or owt, I think it's quality. my point was that it shows what these boys have been listening to over the last few years, and some of the stuff you read would have you believe that grime's just pure UK/JA influenced, when it owes quite a lot to that synthetic thuggish rap (that I love so much).

sean downes
30-03-2005, 05:08 PM
i think once garage becomes a more song based music you will get more of the "rakim style extended metaphors" (barf) you lot are pining after. instead of mcs just spitting their biggest bars over the hottest riddim, you'll get more collaborative efforts between mc & producer (though this happens already i guess, especially as so many mcs use fruity), lyrics being written specifically for a song. i'm guessing ja artists work the same way, writing rave lyrics and then recycling them on whatever the big riddim is. whether this will = better lyrics is uncertain, it all depends on the artists songwriting abilities; in the us an mc might blowup and get signed off the back of his amazing mixtape/battle lyrics but then fail to have consecutive hits with well written songs. see for example, saigon, fabolous & cassidy. even jadakiss has failed to reach nas/jay z levels of classic album status, even though he is considered to be one of the best writers in the game.

sean downes
30-03-2005, 05:12 PM
but yeah, let's stop comparing uk mcs to us ones (especially rakim, the most overrated mc in rap history), i thought it was already established that garage mcing is a completely different style that relies on completely different cultural and enviromental signifiers.

sean downes
30-03-2005, 05:14 PM
i mean, the reason grime is so good is because uk mcs are finally rapping how they talk, right?

blissblogger
30-03-2005, 05:15 PM
my point was that it shows what these boys have been listening to over the last few years, and some of the stuff you read would have you believe that grime's just pure UK/JA influenced, when it owes quite a lot to that synthetic thuggish rap (that I love so much).

yeah especially a few years ago there was a heavy swizz beats influencece in grime, a lot of tunes had those sort of lurching angular bombast-riffs a la certain dmx etc tunes (which i always thought were kinda gabba-y -- see also ludacris)

grime production is always constantly testing how angular, heavy-handed and unswinging a groove can be before it ceases to be funky, becomes purely oppressive

bruza's flow is actually isomorphic (right word?) to the structure of those kind of post-Swizz riffs

in other words a fluent Nas/common/whatever type flow would not suit the music as it currently is

sean downes
30-03-2005, 05:19 PM
it's been said before but "things that you do" by jay z f mariah carey pretty much invented "sino-grime".

sean downes
30-03-2005, 05:20 PM
and "destruction" has always kinda reminded me of "down bottom"

Noah Baby Food
30-03-2005, 05:23 PM
The closest thing to a US-style MC in grime is Kano I guess. He has a flow that yer dullard keep-it-real hip hop lot could appreciate, but that's no diss. That freestyle on Risky Roadz...FUCKING HELL MATE, incredible.

mpc
30-03-2005, 05:49 PM
bruza is completely emotionless.

every good MC has either: a) a good voice b) good flow c) good lyrics

dizee has all three.

bruza has none.

his voice is certainly unique, but it's by no means endearing.

as a rave MC, he's very good for getting the crowd going, but so is jammer...

the first time i saw bruza was on the lord of the mics dvd and it is, without question, the worst piece of MCing i have ever witnessed.

Diggedy Derek
30-03-2005, 06:03 PM
Bruza is much too funny to be emotionless.

gumdrops
30-03-2005, 07:20 PM
i think people have misconstrued what i meant. im not after rakim-type MCs in grime. my bone of contention isnt content or subject matter - its basically meter, flow, timing etc, something dizzee, wiley, kano and trim (even though he drawls all over the place) all possess and are brilliant with. thats all i ask for. i dont think thats asking too much. but you guys are so into this NO DONT EVER COMPARE GRIME MCS TO US ONES OR USE THEM AS STANDARD BEARERS when im not even using US emcees to compare with.

i find it odd that im not allowed to compare grime MCs to US MCs when most grime MCs are undoubtedly influenced by american MCs, yet people make all these punk-grime analogies all the time. strange.

nomos
30-03-2005, 07:56 PM
I thought the more interesting part of Martin's piece was the comparison to dancehall and the comment that grime has no 'conscious' side. Seemed like a call for lyrical innovation and redirection of energy, not a change in people's flows.

mms
30-03-2005, 09:02 PM
I thought the more interesting part of Martin's piece was the comparison to dancehall and the comment that grime has no 'conscious' side. Seemed like a call for lyrical innovation and redirection of energy, not a change in people's flows.

hence my beef about 'postive rasta' jammer's first mc track being a post pow track about being the merkle man and going for the metal.
call me the rappin reverend but i'm not into that. he can do what he likes but that much inconsistency looks a bit messy.

cooper
30-03-2005, 11:57 PM
hence my beef about 'postive rasta' jammer's first mc track being a post pow track about being the merkle man and going for the metal.
call me the rappin reverend but i'm not into that. he can do what he likes but that much inconsistency looks a bit messy.

But isn't that just the same as dancehall? Not that I'm a Stelfox but I was under the impression that many popular dancehall artists tend to flip-flop between religious exhortation and glorification of violence, like when 50 Cent thanks God in his liner notes.

Tactics
31-03-2005, 01:12 AM
but yeah, let's stop comparing uk mcs to us ones (especially rakim, the most overrated mc in rap history), i thought it was already established that garage mcing is a completely different style that relies on completely different cultural and enviromental signifiers.

rakim...the most overrated mc...close this thread man...what the f***....great mc's being mentioned in te same breath as garage ones jus doesnt add up but I guess this is jus evident of the hunger for the UK to claim something as 'ours' I guess....

gumdrops
31-03-2005, 11:59 AM
rakim...the most overrated mc...close this thread man...what the f***....great mc's being mentioned in te same breath as garage ones jus doesnt add up but I guess this is jus evident of the hunger for the UK to claim something as 'ours' I guess....

exactly. i LOVE grime and the MCs' energy, i still know half of the MCing is borderline shit though. i find it funny people cant admit it. im starting to wonder how long people have thought critically about MCing. maybe the first time they heard 'oi', lol. i guess thats what you get from listeners coming from mainly rock or other genres' to a music like grime.

mms
31-03-2005, 09:36 PM
But isn't that just the same as dancehall? Not that I'm a Stelfox but I was under the impression that many popular dancehall artists tend to flip-flop between religious exhortation and glorification of violence, like when 50 Cent thanks God in his liner notes.

yeah but he hasn't even flip flopped, and i don't think dancehall dj's really do that to a great extent.

boy better know
02-04-2005, 12:29 AM
rakim...the most overrated mc...what the f***....

i know, KRS 1 is much more overrated.

Tactics
02-04-2005, 12:46 AM
i know, KRS 1 is much more overrated.

CLOSE THIS THREAD PLEASE. SOMEONE.

luka
02-04-2005, 12:50 AM
man, i can't beleive you took the bait! it was a worm with your name written on it

nomos
02-04-2005, 02:25 AM
lol. it's true. he ate the worm.

no need to lock the thread as there's plenty of relevant stuff to talk about still. take, for instance, Fiddy's ruminations on the matter which can be read here (http://chantellefiddy.blogspot.com/2005/03/still-growing.html) and discussed in the space provided below (preferably with reference to the blackdown piece).

gumdrops
04-05-2005, 07:43 PM
after thinking about this subject and listening to various grime mixtapes, i have to say that i still dont think there are many MCs who carry over that well to making actual records, actual songs. but theyre all great on pirate radio sessions. i dont care much for say, prangman, but when i hear d double ripping it on rinse as i did on sunday, its the best thing ever. i dont think MCs have mastered the art of making songs yet (but it might come with time) and apart from that, to be honest, i find a lot of MCs pretty unlistenable!

people used to say rapping simply didnt come off that well to british MCs, and well, apart from various exceptions over the years both in grime and uk hip hop, i kinda have to say, im not sure my position has changed much on that. thats probably kinda harsh, but for me at least, while i do love dizzee, wiley, d double, kano, the best thing about grime is really still the beats. terror danjah's beats for example, sound great with or without an mc, and one good thing about hearing them alone is you get to hear all these little brilliant details you might not have done when someone is shouting on top of it. i can only imagine how good wonder's remix of hype hype must be without the mcs on top of it!

gumdrops
11-04-2007, 12:25 PM
"I've got the leaders of the new skool. I've got em – I know who they are. They are Scorcher... [turns around to start compiling chart of grime's future] Skepta's getting a bit old, he's pushing on, but he'll be there. Bashy. These people, they're in the game. It's like they want to show me how good they are. Can you imagine that? I'm just a dad – or a granddad, they call me. And they're in the booth, they're trying to show me what they can do. And I'm like, well that means that despite the wars and despite everything, you do actually look to me for an ‘ok', or a tick in the box or something, but they do look. And that's a good thing. That means they haven't just been here to clash with me. They actually learned off me before they even knew me! That's a good thing."

was reading that wiley interview and i dont really think hes OTM there. there isnt really anyone thats really as distinct or memorable as any of the guys that have been around for a few years coming through, far as i can tell.

viktorvaughn
11-04-2007, 01:48 PM
hahaha...

slightly unrelated: would like to see some grime MCs murking Blade. I fucking despise that shitty excuse for an MC. "You've been around for years mate...WELL DONE. Oh, are you writing a new song about being true to your sound and staying positive? Shit, how did you ever think of that?". For me, he stands for everything that is dull, restrictive, pious, "worthy", pointless and SAFE about hip hop. Just coz he's been around for yonks, the dude is BAIT. He should quit. Let's unleash Scratchy and Trim on him or some shit. Fuck, I'd do it meself.

Sorry everyone, but I really hate Blade, and what that shit stands for, and most of his audience. that to me is the polar opposite of all that's exciting 'bout grime.

has anyone heard that new Blade track on Channel U? fake Premier beat, lyrics all about how's he stuck at it for years. makes me wanna kill...

lol...That is so true, i fucking hate Blade! He epitomises everything shit about UKHH. I know it gets knocked in favour of Grime, but there have been some class albums - Brand New Second Hand and the Klasnekoff one spring to mind.

mos dan
11-04-2007, 02:00 PM
lol...That is so true, i fucking hate Blade! He epitomises everything shit about UKHH. I know it gets knocked in favour of Grime, but there have been some class albums - Brand New Second Hand and the Klasnekoff one spring to mind.

lol at Blade. 'Hip-Hop Backpackers Get the Gasface!!', as the hilariously-named MySpace group puts it.

Really interesting reading through this thread - I had no idea Dissensus was here until about nine months ago (sorry).

gumdrops
11-04-2007, 02:26 PM
the other thing ive been thinking about w/r/t grime MCing is that apart from a few MCs, its like they dont really spend much time writing their bars. they just seem to dash them off. which is fine in some instances, and great for the live moment, but it doesnt really mean theres much to return to after youve heard it once or twice. or it means there isnt much there to really grab onto the first time either. its fine if the flows and energy are amazing or whatever but it would be nice if guys spent a bit of time on what they were writing too (and i dont mean they have to write some deep meaningful dissertation, just to clarify). this isnt everyone obviously, i love that skepta verse about 'lets go deeper...' and trim obviously is into his craft, but a lot of guys just seem to not really care.

Blackdown
11-04-2007, 05:13 PM
[QUOTE=gumdrops;15488]http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com/2005/03/go-on-then.html

this URL is now: http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_archive.html

mms
11-04-2007, 09:30 PM
lol at Blade. 'Hip-Hop Backpackers Get the Gasface!!', as the hilariously-named MySpace group puts it.

Really interesting reading through this thread - I had no idea Dissensus was here until about nine months ago (sorry).
funny cos when blade started
he was the 1990 equivalent to grime... street, independent, not chatting in a us accent...

viktorvaughn
11-04-2007, 10:46 PM
I would be interested to hear than, cos i only know him from his waste years.

gumdrops
12-04-2007, 10:18 AM
from what i remember his beats were pretty much the same as american ones from the time, its just that his themes, subject matter, focus etc was quite londoncentric. i havent heard those records in years though so not sure how they wouls stand up now.

mistersloane
12-04-2007, 11:40 AM
from what i remember his beats were pretty much the same as american ones from the time, its just that his themes, subject matter, focus etc was quite londoncentric. i havent heard those records in years though so not sure how they wouls stand up now.

I liked 'Mind of an Ordinary Citizen' when it came out, he seemed to have got his beats 'right' - alot of the Uk hiphop at the time, the production was so-so at best, which sounds endearing now but at the time it was just annoying that we couldn't do it as 'good' as the yanks.

mms
12-04-2007, 12:02 PM
I liked 'Mind of an Ordinary Citizen' when it came out, he seemed to have got his beats 'right' - alot of the Uk hiphop at the time, the production was so-so at best, which sounds endearing now but at the time it was just annoying that we couldn't do it as 'good' as the yanks.

pretty much all uk hip hop was engineered by a bloke called no sleep nigel, the sound was grimey, a bit noisey, with a touch of dancehall, which is what made it good, there were some good bands, one called hardnoise, who went on to be a hardcore group, who's records you could play the instrumentals of at 45 and there you go, instant hardcore!
alot of uk hip hoppers from the time did this stuff, then you got the kingpin, simon harris from music of life, who was doing hip hop and dance music at the same time, all those mcs went to rave.

mistersloane
12-04-2007, 12:44 PM
pretty much all uk hip hop was engineered by a bloke called no sleep nigel, the sound was grimey, a bit noisey, with a touch of dancehall, which is what made it good, there were some good bands, one called hardnoise, who went on to be a hardcore group, who's records you could play the instrumentals of at 45 and there you go, instant hardcore!
alot of uk hip hoppers from the time did this stuff, then you got the kingpin, simon harris from music of life, who was doing hip hop and dance music at the same time, all those mcs went to rave.

yeah hardnoise were interesting. I loved the Demon Boyz - still do - but I always thought Harris' production was limited, I just wanted him to use another drum machine instead of whatever he was using ( what was that that made that flat electro-ish sound? ).

It just seemed to me that we were trying to get to somewhere without the equipment, after the first Def Jam stuff it was just over for me for UK hiphop production wise, even Hijack. I like it more now though.

mms
12-04-2007, 12:52 PM
yeah hardnoise were interesting. I loved the Demon Boyz - still do - but I always thought Harris' production was limited, I just wanted him to use another drum machine instead of whatever he was using ( what was that that made that flat electro-ish sound? ).

It just seemed to me that we were trying to get to somewhere without the equipment, after the first Def Jam stuff it was just over for me for UK hiphop production wise, even Hijack. I like it more now though.

Hijack signed to rhyme syndicate in the states and did a rubbish album, don't talk to strangers being the funniest track ever.
Then two blokes from hijack went on to be pied piper and the masters of ceremony - 'do you really like it, is it is it wicked?'

mistersloane
12-04-2007, 12:59 PM
Hijack signed to rhyme syndicate in the states and did a rubbish album, don't talk to strangers being the funniest track ever.
Then two blokes from hijack went on to be pied piper and the masters of ceremony - 'do you really like it, is it is it wicked?'

It's never worked for any Uk rappers in the States apart from Monie, has it? And she was US to start with.

Getting back on track, I think pretty much all the major grime people are do amazing things lyrically and metre-wise. I'd really like to see them collaborating with the UK hip-hop people, Skinnyman in particular, although he seems a bit antagonistic towards it ( I thought that 'RU Really From the Endz bit he chats on one of his last tracks like a throwdown, he's double timing like a madamn. )

Noah Baby Food
12-04-2007, 05:06 PM
haha, daaamn, wrote that rant about Blade 2 years ago..never thought that one would get a pullup! I don't write in such an acerbic manner on the web nowadays, but i still stand by that. dunno if i'd say "i hate all his audience" these days, that's a bit much. but yeah, that shit does depress me. Lyrical Maniac and Mind Of An... were nice back in 90, but yes, you gotta know when to quit. Same with KRS-1...I hate to say it and I am well prepared to be proved wrong but I think it's time Kris retired...he's stuck...too damn basic, permanently preaching...his voice is still tuff though.

But back to grime...2 yrs later and the levels are UP UP UP. Personally I do prefer the beats from 2002-2005 to most new stuff, but you can't deny there's a lot of impressive MCs. Trim, I mean, what can you say? Ghetto is ferocious and technical, not the most charming on the mic but technically sick. Dunno why Wiley isn't proppin his boy Scratchy there, I'd swap him for Scorcher in Grime Top Trumps any day. His concept bars, like the one where he namedrops loads of cigarette brands, are well different. Has a lot of charisma. I know it's controversial but I like Terminator, like a grime ODB I'd say. He don't give a fuck either coz he's got that QPR paper. Brazen's big. He's not a real "lyrical" cat but Temps is punk rock as they come. Faction G is well underrated. Could probably think of more.

It's good that all the media next-big-thing stupidity has died down, and now hopefully those who wanna do it can just get on with doing it.

viktorvaughn
12-04-2007, 05:51 PM
Yeah i agree.

Beats have got a bit less, well i won't say good, but 'urgent'. Listening to some recent sets i would kill for a big whoomphy alias-style bassline to come in. They may have been a playstation back then but often less is more.

But the MC levels? The levels are going UP!

Scratcheys bars about looney tunes characters are quality also - 'i'll roger rabbit' etc.

But putting a positive spin on the UKHH for a minute - What are the quality ones?

I would go for-----

Brand New Second Hand (Roots Manuva)

The Sagas Of....Klashnekoff

Understanding (New Flesh)

Masquerades and Silhouettes - Lewis Parker (Love this to bits, love to hear some griMeCs on his beats)

Noah Baby Food
12-04-2007, 07:42 PM
Yeah, definitely, got to give UK rap its props still. Roots is a true original, have a lot of time for him. New Flesh also. WhyLout? from Brixton have done some good stuff too.

I don't neccessarily see a massive split between UKHH and grime anyway, and neither do a lot of people who actually do the music. If you spit, you'll spit on anything you feel. Grime's younger, got different influences, yada yada yada, but it's still spitting, self-expression on beats. I see the split between those who listen to the young and are up for new influences and can move on, and those who are bitterly clinging onto some old template. Mate, this country's music scene is so damn conservative and mono-cultural at the moment, EVERYONE who's doing some real shit should try and stick together...that goes for grime, hip hop, garage, metal, punk, techno, noise, whatever...a hippyish ideal eh? fuck it, music's a serious business! it can save yer life!