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captain pineapple
14-10-2004, 01:24 AM
Hi All,

From some of the comments I've seen here so far, it would seem that Grime is the flavour of the minute (or sound of the future, depending on your outlook :p). As a dumbass foreigner who only has access to this scene through the vinyl I've bought over the years, I have a few questions on how people who are a bit physically closer to things percieve what has come before and where it will go. A year or two ago, it was my understanding that 8-bar went down like a lead balloon in the clubs. Has this changed? - it doesn't strike me as very clubby music. And if so, how do people enjoy this music? At home, or out and about at different types of events? Battles? Car stereos? (I guess the pirates have a lot to do with this).

From comment's I've seen on woebot's blog, it would seem that 2 step is "over". I really appreciate this style of music, and I come from a city whose populace only recently embraced it once the tunes had been around a while. I note that some of the old producers (DJ Fen, Wideboys et al) are still (re)releasing the odd tune, but there's only a trickle of records, compared to the massive wave around 2000/01. Is this style still around in the clubs, or is it just dead? I imagine that people over there have had it rammed down their throats for a good long while, so it kind of makes sense. Will it ever resurface?

4/4: This is the 'old skool' sound of UKG, but still seems to be prominent in a few places. What is the perception of this style? Many artists who were big boosters of 2 step have moved into this format, and there's some pretty decent (for some definition of the word) releases coming out from Prolific, 2T4U, etc. Do people still enjoy this format, or is it perceived as chasing something that's long gone?

I for one would like to see 2step and 4/4 Garage emerge the way house did, as a format which has legs over a long time, rather than the 'flash in the pan' it seems to have been percieved as. But for that to happen, I guess it needs to go underground while Grime has the spotlight. Is there any evidence of this happening anywhere?

Ok, from my rudimentary questions, you can probably guess that I have little to no insight on the scene outside of really enjoying the music. But I do offer this: that after the "death" of 2 step last year, there are 3 distinct styles of UK Garage - 2step, 4x4 and Grime. None of which are prefixed with a 'UK'! Does this mean a greater possibility for international success than last time out? A british invasion of the US? I hope so.

Flame away folks! :o

Backjob
14-10-2004, 02:14 AM
As a slight addendum to that, a friend of mine in London who is doing a photography project with a bunch of hackney kids who are aspiring mcs, told me that they split grime into two camps: "forward" (which they despise) and "bashment" (which they love).

D'you all reckon bashment garage just means the more street end of mc-oriented 8-bar, or does it actually mean tracks with bashment style mc-ing?

simon silverdollar
14-10-2004, 10:12 AM
i haven't got direct experience of grime in a club, but there are big grime raves in london and outside; raves like wiley's eskimo dance, and young man standing, sidewinder, and the various 'birthday bashes' in celebration of a particular MC's/DJ's birthday. i think, though, that these raves are not regular things- it's not like weekly, or fortnightly. they seem to be more big, irregular special events. at these raves, the MC line up is really the big thing, rather than the dj line up. i'm not sure whether you'd call grime, or 8 bar, dance music or not. there are conflicting reports- some say that at the big grime raves people just stand around nodding to the lyrics, '8-mile' style, but some say that it can get very messy + full-on on the dancefloor when a big MC comes on the mic- from what some people say, it sounds like people MOSH!

so there is a fairly big rave scene- but it's very much MC focussed, with the audience going to see the MCs, and going crazy when their favourite MC comes on. there are also some MC battles at most grime raves, it seems.

as far as 2-step + 4/4 garage goes, just from listening to ads on the pirates there seems to be more regular raves of this kind than grime raves. there's still a massive audience for the more oldskool end of ukg, even if there isn't a great deal of new records being put out. like, at the moment there are more ukg than grime pirates operating in london. and even the really big grime pirates, such as rinse and freeze play loads of 2-step + 4/4.

personally, i think that 2-step is going to come back massively, but in a radically reconfigured form. often when there's a big fanbase for something, but it's not burdened with the 'next big thing' tag, that's when real invention happens. new things generally come from what's been ignored or put aside, but for which there's still a great deal of affection. i mean, grime can be seen like that- kids that grew up on jungle, and loved it, putting out something with had a similar intensity to it, but sounded completely different. and again, the initial rise of UKG seems to show a similar trend- people that were into US house, music that had been swamped out of the 'cutting edge' since the mid 90s in the uk, coming back with a radically new variant in the late 90s that took over.
sometimes the healthiest thing for a scene to do is NOT be seen as 'the sound of the future', but the sound of the past.

oh, and in answer to the question about fwd + bashment, 'fwd' is the name of a rave, which has become the name for the particular style of garage played there- generally, the darker, more breakbeaty end of things. not much in the way of melody, and with MCs taking a secondary role to the DJ. this is also known as the 'rinse fm' sound, and the 'croydon' sound [one the scene's biggest artists, plasticman, is from croydon, and croydon's big apple records is one of the hubs of this scene'] . the fact that those kids referred to their MC-style as 'bashment' is interesting, as it shows why the description of grime as 'uk hip hop' is often a little bit lazy- grime MCs owe just as much to dancehall MCs, -in terms of their rhythm, and tempo, and even accents sometimes, - as to us hip hop MCs.



wow, that was long!

blissblogger
14-10-2004, 04:06 PM
tell me what "bashment" means in musical terms -- i know what it refers to originally and understand the general vibe/sensibility. but if i went to a "bashment" event in London (fat chance), what would i actually hear? is it like a smorgasbord type deal of modern street beat type stuff

also while we're defining terms, what exactly is reggaeton?

ta

simon silverdollar
14-10-2004, 04:13 PM
as fas as i understand, 'bashment' is a term for what's, perhaps more widely, called dancehall. like in ads for raves on pirate radio, they'll always say 'bashment', and not 'dancehall'. i guess may be it's the more hip-hop influenced side of dancehall- vybz cartel, sean paul, ward 21 and all that. i dunno. but that's what i always thought it was.

as for 'reggaeton'; fuck knows!

Diggedy Derek
14-10-2004, 04:26 PM
Yeah I agree 2-step is gonna come back. It's not just a genre, I think, but almost a mindset. You see people on message boards with signatures like "2-Step Forever". That kind of bump-and-flex music is not only one 4 Da Ladeez, but also it fulfills the role of being anthemic, it lodges itself in the collective unconscious or whatever.

Even DJs like Cameo and Logan play a certain amount of 2-Step.

mms
14-10-2004, 04:39 PM
i don't think 2 step will ever go away, the success of a tune like babyface says it all, people need a soppy hug at the end of the day. also 2 step is generally pirate daytime music, even on rinse or whatever, it all get,s heavier in the evenings. I liked a walk in the park by dj oddz recently.

as for the bashment thing, yep undoubtedly as early uk hip hop before it and rave mc's on grime tracks owe more to dancehall than US hip hop in alot of ways, people like saxon practically owned the double time thing, mcs like papa levi etc, and even some rave mc's , like the ragga twins came out of systems like Unity sounds, it also appears that alot of the main players in the scene's parents were involved in soundsystems and that..

boomnoise
14-10-2004, 05:26 PM
also while we're defining terms, what exactly is reggaeton?

as i understand it reggaeton is a puerton rican music which mixes in hip hop. kinda like a latin reggae with beats. anyone care to go any further on this as my limited knowledge of it has been bothering me for a while now. Who are big reggaeton artists? And how has this stuff traveled?

mms
14-10-2004, 05:31 PM
here is an article on reggeaton from ny times

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/07/arts/music/07REGG.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5007&en=ef3f7213baa89b46&ex=1375588800&partner=USERLAND

seems to differ from funky del morro, cos of the influences.

Grievous Angel
14-10-2004, 06:08 PM
saying 2step will come back is exactly like saying ardkore will come back.

see what i mean?

who will be the remarc of 2step?

paul"2stepwasthegreatestmusicevermadewiththepossibleexc eptionofraggajungle"meme

droid
14-10-2004, 07:07 PM
as fas as i understand, 'bashment' is a term for what's, perhaps more widely, called dancehall. like in ads for raves on pirate radio, they'll always say 'bashment', and not 'dancehall'. i guess may be it's the more hip-hop influenced side of dancehall- vybz cartel, sean paul, ward 21 and all that. i dunno. but that's what i always thought it was.
As far as Im aware, if there is any real distinction between ragga/dancehall and bashment, its a fairly subtle one... there might be a bit more of a slackness/gangsta thing (if thats possible) associated with 'bashment tune' but ive often heard it used to describe 'pure vibes' music, or 'party' dancehall.. as i think the word originally comes from the term 'to have a bash'- 'bash' meaning party or event of some kind.

Im just wondering how all the dancehall heads feel about the blatant rip off of their word! What if they retaliate and start calling their scene 'math-rock' or something?

This could be the start of the inter-genre wars!!!

bun-u
14-10-2004, 08:08 PM
I think there's a time-lag aspect to some of these scenes, old jungle acts were selling quite well until recently simply because the kids who loved it in their teens had purchasing power in their 20s (both in buying the records, going to raves) and now its the same with 2 step. I've noticed that virtually all the records I hear on the pirates and see in the garage section at hmv oxford st are ones from 98/99. maybe grime's real payday will be around 2010?! also, there a geographical dimension - seems to be the home counties/m25 towns than where the hardcore 2 steppers live

Nick Gutterbreakz
14-10-2004, 09:16 PM
Ah! I'd been fretting over the whole 'bashment' definition thing, so this thread comes at the perfect time. And I can now assume that what I've been calling 'Rephlex Grime' is actually called 'Forward'?

When's the 'intelligent grime' scene due to commence? Early next year?

blissblogger
14-10-2004, 09:54 PM
and to add more confusion the hottest grime riddim of the moment is called FWD and has about 18 mcs on it and about as far from the croydon/rinse FM type stuff as you can get

(or is Lethal B's track actually properly spelt 'Forward' for even MORE confusion?- on my white label it's just felt tipped as FWD)

where incidentally is Wonder situated in this -- he's done stuff on dumpvalve right (whose mixcd on Deuce i thought was quite rotten) but also the amazing track with Kano on it, 'what have you done'

plus his track 'what' is like so perfectly situated between 8-bar and Croydon T'ing -- the Grime/Grimm (exqueeze me) knife edge

simon silverdollar
14-10-2004, 10:40 PM
i'd say wonder is 'grime' rather than fwd, but it's not like there's a clear distinction between the two scenes- plasticman's tracks get played on MC shows- 'cha' is a particular favourite with a lot of crews. and slimzee, now one of the main fwd people still plays some grime on his pirate shows. there's some cross pollination.

has anyone hear wiley's 'morgue'? it's a totally blatant rip-off of wonder's 'what'.

it's all about popambient-grime now though. it's a new genre i made up. that slowed down, brittle melodic sound, like ruff sqwad + wiley's 'ground zero' and 'fire hydrant' and davinche's 'baby' and 'mishmash'.

mms
14-10-2004, 10:47 PM
[where incidentally is Wonder situated in this -- he's done stuff on dumpvalve right (whose mixcd on Deuce i thought was quite rotten) but also the amazing track with Kano on it, 'what have you done'


really like that "what have you done" track with kano, reminds me of the chef rekwon stuff from the wu tang days , like rainy days on his first album.

he's done the beats for one of the better tracks on the new dizzie album too. the riddim is avaliable on the 12 of that slimzee bingo mix, he was also on the telly in some urban talent spotters competition to do beats on channel 4, quite weird, fatman scoop who probably has one of the doziest ears in hip hop was judging it, he's also forward regular.

rico's defintley there too in a sense, that gangsta track over wizzbit's poppadam riddim last year straddled the genres quite tidily.


in another sense, one of the most dubbiest of dubsteppers loefah's new one horrorshow is getting mc'ed over quite alot.

as for intelligent grime, obviously fuck that. you can't blame rephlex for that whatever problems you have withem.

redcrescent
14-10-2004, 10:53 PM
@blissblogger, @simon silverdollar:
Try googling for "reggeton", too. Seems the spelling is flexible.
Don't know any artists apart from NY-based Ivy Queen (http://www.musicofpuertorico.com/en/queen_ivy.html), who has worked with Wyclef Jean.
I've heard there is a good, recent (Aug. '04) mix CD by a certain DJ Frank entitled Power of Reggeton on Universal. Get it here (http://store.wellsfargoestore.com/Store.asp?m=RealEntertainmentGroup&n=9&k=7153&s=Reggeton), but I don't know or endorse this site.
Another high profile release here, with sound (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3980845).
Short intro on reggeton as a genre here (http://www.musicofpuertorico.com/en/genre_reggaeton.html).
Re.: Funky del morro / baile funk: I know that Rio Baile Funk and some of the Funk Neurotico comps, Diplo of Hollertronix (soon to appear, in a mouthwatering lineup, with Kano, Wiley, et. al. in London, i.e. out of my orbit) who puts out crunk mixes, has also done one called Favela on Blast, any clues on where to find more or what I should check for?

captain easychord
14-10-2004, 11:46 PM
has anyone hear wiley's 'morgue'? it's a totally blatant rip-off of wonder's 'what'.


WTF i've been hearing that all over sets and on the creeper mixtape... i thought for sure that it was some remix business. i swear he sampled that high chimey sound right off the wonder track.

Backjob
15-10-2004, 12:33 AM
Noreaga's new single "oye mi canto" is reggaeton, cos he has a po' rican background, and it features Tego Calderon who, as i understand it, is one of the biggest reggaeton artists out there. All the reggaeton I've heard has that staggered dancehall beat coupled with g-funk type synths and latin rapping. It's pretty good.

DavidD
15-10-2004, 05:41 AM
I just got this:
http://www.blazinmixtapes.com/Blazin2K4/images/Danny-S-Reggaeton-2K4.jpg
http://www.blazinmixtapes.com/Blazin2K4/DJs/Misc/Danny-S-Reggaeton-Party-2K4.htm
in the mail today and it's amazing, as far as Reggaeton goes its one of the best mixes I've heard. I also heard something called "Reggaeton Desafio" and it seemed nice as well but not quite as great as this mixtape.

Can someone recommend some grime releases from this year? I'm from the U.S. and am completely out of touch with this stuff aside from the two Dizzee albums, the Wiley album and that Wonder/Kano song.

captain easychord
15-10-2004, 05:58 AM
you should try and get a hold of some comps..... for example:

the lord of the decks compliations are wicked. they have most of the big vocal anthems as well as loads of "freestyles" (MC's spitting over whole instrumentals unedited... dancehall style). the first one, fellowship of the mic was put out in 2002, and the lord of the decks was put out in 2003. apparently there's another one in the works.

http://www.catapult.co.uk/product_view?id=2561

also the creeper mixtape is a good example of what roll deep is up to these days. otherwise i would recommend checking out radio shows... mebbe at www.eskibeat.co.uk or cameo's show, he's usually caning all the current chooonz....

Backjob
15-10-2004, 07:29 AM
Simon Silverdollarcircle's <a href="http://www.stylusmagazine.com/feature.php?ID=1211">list at Stylus</a> isn't all from this year but it's totally solid nonetheless.

Or you could just read <a href="http://silverdollarcircle.blogspot.com/">his blog</a>...

I'd add, from this year:

Essentials - "jenny" (refix)
Gemma Fox and 2Face - "Gone" (davinche mix)
Eastwood and Oddz - "Revolution ep"
Durrty Doogz - "Gangster" (the one that has the riff from "black ops" - might have the name wrong)
Dirty Dangerous - "Anna"

Backjob
15-10-2004, 07:38 AM
Also, if anyone wants that Favela on Blast cd, you can order it direct from diplo by emailing him on diplo1978@yahoo.com I think it's $10...

DavidD
15-10-2004, 07:59 AM
I highly recommend it, I ordered it via that email address, he sends it quite quickly and when I interviewed him he mentioned how he's the one that ships them all personally.

Oh and thanks for the recommends everyone.

captain pineapple
15-10-2004, 08:34 AM
Simon Silverdollarcircle's <a href="http://www.stylusmagazine.com/feature.php?ID=1211">list at Stylus</a> isn't all from this year but it's totally solid nonetheless.

Or you could just read <a href="http://silverdollarcircle.blogspot.com/">his blog</a>...


Simon Silverdollar: Thanks for the info and reassurance - It's not that often that someone who is so passionate about a new sound has something good to say for what has come before. From reading your blog and the article mentioned above it's obvious that in a few years, your observations on this scene will be crucial recordings of its beginnings. So you get to be one of the ones who gets to say "See? See? Told ya!". Big thanks! I was also very pleased to find that I had at least 50% of the tracks you mention in the list above :)

A few vinyl to add:
Invade - DJ Dreddy/Cry Me a River (Black Ops)
Frontline2/Gunshot (Anthem) - Big Ed
The Regime - DJ Eastwood
Dirty Canvas EP - Davinche
Cancer - Wonder

Of course you need to bring an MC for all of these :D

simon silverdollar
15-10-2004, 10:10 AM
hey davidd;

how about you send me a cdr of that reggeton comp + i'll send some up-to-the-minute grime?

if you fancy it, e-mail me at;
championsoundboy@yahoo.com

staggered dancehall + g funk synths! that's like what i always dreamed of!

mms
15-10-2004, 11:20 AM
funky del morro and those funk neurotico mp3s to download here
http://www.evil-wire.org/~ampere/mp3/funky/

redcrescent
15-10-2004, 01:24 PM
funky del morro and those funk neurotico mp3s to download here
http://www.evil-wire.org/~ampere/mp3/funky/

Thanks, mms! That's where I got my Funk Neurotico from. Here's hoping that site stays up awhile/gets added to.
DavidD/Backjob, I will write Diplo for Favela on Blast. Thanks.

mms
15-10-2004, 01:38 PM
No worries,
incidentally when i used to live in stoke newington about 5 years ago or so a bar called bar lorca at the end of church st that used to play alot of that funky music, they'd play em early on in the night, usually the tracks were rerub's of well known pop technoey tracks with mcing, just to get the audience jumping before they played more trad stuff.

quite lush.

hamarplazt
15-10-2004, 02:07 PM
When's the 'intelligent grime' scene due to commence? Early next year?

To me the Hawerchuk 12" on Planet MU sounds very much like an attempt to make 'intelligent grime'. It's going to happen sooner or later anyway, I just hope that it's not actually going to be called intelligent.

mms
15-10-2004, 02:14 PM
i'm not sure how that whole intelligent thing came about, it's easier to see how it happened in drum and bass but with techno and electronica it seemed to happen more with the creation of the idm list, after the word intelligent dance music started being used in the media.

it's funny how you're saying the hawerchuk is an attempt to make intelligent grime .

Nick Gutterbreakz
15-10-2004, 03:54 PM
I was just thinking of the potential, particularly for the 'FWD' grime, to spill out into the album orientated 'home listening' market, maybe even developing the possibility of 'Ambient Grime' (which already exists in my mind). Sort of inevitable, I reckon...

captain easychord
15-10-2004, 04:43 PM
^^^^^^^^ i agree. from what i've heard the FWD events never really pop off. people just chilling, checking out the bass and beats. i mean, people don't really "dance" at bashment raves but they cause a ruckus. all that FWD stuff seems custom made for solitary listening.

Nick Gutterbreakz
15-10-2004, 06:55 PM
The other factor to consider is that we're rapidly approaching that point that i call 'mid-decade inertia' (check the last three decades for the proof)...everything's gonna get all tasteful and mature for a while....

captain easychord
15-10-2004, 07:22 PM
dude you might have to expound on this mid-decade thing you speak of...

Nick Gutterbreakz
15-10-2004, 08:43 PM
I've been gradually piecing this one together in my warped little mind for a while now. It'll end up as a full thesis at my blog sometime soon I'm sure. For now, let's just say that Wiley will be announcing that he's gonna be working with some jazz musicians, Dizzie will be back with a double-concept-album with live orchestration and Plasticman's discreet 'armchair grime' album will be the #1 coffee table accessory...

be.jazz
15-10-2004, 10:11 PM
'mid-decade inertia'
Are we mid-decade already? Damn...

Pearsall
15-10-2004, 11:34 PM
If people are looking for recordings of grim pirate shows, voila (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/grimesetsarchivemusic.htm). You have to be registered to download, though.

Hadean
16-10-2004, 04:59 AM
Are we mid-decade already? Damn...

nah, still in the "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" year re: 60s

mms
16-10-2004, 11:15 AM
This might sound a bit weird but often, listening to grime mc's no the pirates at home makes me feel quite angry after a while, you have to sit there and absorb all the non stop merking (usually directed directly to a "you", rather than in hip hop that typically directs at mc's). I end up getting quite short tempered .

It's quite believable that the under 18's raves turn into moshpits,and massive fights, some of the put downs are both stentorian and bullying, and even though they obviously aren't supposed to be directed at the audience, the only way i could see an audience getting into it is by absorbing the anger and reacting on it or not. Grime is really direct in that way.


I know this is just a generalisation about why under 18's raves may turn into fights, god knows I went to enough where there were fights for all different reasons. Mainly cos of coming from different schools and girls. (The best one was shut up and dance at the twilight zone in Camborne, just after they'd released Lamborghini)

redcrescent
16-10-2004, 02:01 PM
To those with The Knowledge:
How well has MarkOne's One Way (which I like a lot) gone down with people? In more general terms, how well does Grime translate from stage and radio sets/battles, single tracks on 12"s and EPs to full-length albums available in high-street shops? I love Wiley's and both of Dizzee's, of course, but I can think of a few examples where the emergence of albums (especially on major labels) and coverage in the mainstream media (who are usually clueless and insensitive) was a clear sign that a genre was fast approaching its expiry date (the prime case being, I think, drum 'n bass). As I'm nowhere near anything that's happening on the ground, I hope I'm very wrong about this and someone closer to the sources can set the facts straight.
On another tip: Whatever happened to "bouncement", a genre term of sorts coined by the Big Dada label to describe a brand of UK hiphop with ragga/UKG/electro-inspired beats? I recall there was a small and short-term hype (here on the continent, at least) after the release of the Extra Yard (http://www.bigdada.com/release.php?id=621) comp (Roots Manuva, Infinite Livez, Ty, New Flesh, Lotek HiFi, Gamma, etc) about 2-3 years ago. Most of the artists have gone their way and keep putting out material (some great, some missable), but I never heard anyone calling anything "bouncement" again... (but what's in a name -and a silly one at that- anyway?)

hamarplazt
16-10-2004, 06:38 PM
I like One Way a lot, but I don't think it completely manages to square the electronic-dance-music-as-an-album circle. Not surprising, really, so few albums do. Too many of the tracks are a bit too similar. Not that they're bad on their own, it's just somewhat superflous to have something like seven tracks basically doing the same thing. It would be much more focused if it was two or three tracks shorter, would work much better as an album. I blame (as always) the CD-standart. One Way isn't even long for a CD, but there's still no shame in making an album just 35 or 40 minutes long. Of course, it would probably be called an EP. Am I the only one thinking that the majority of truly-integrated-records within all kinds of rave derived music are EPs rather than albums proper?

kek-w
18-10-2004, 06:27 PM
I got One Way on Vinyl and it's split into three twelves, so that it's broken down into nice, bite-sized, easily-digestable chunks.

Yeah, I reckon I'd struggle listening to the CD version all the way thru...that's one of the things I never much liked about the CD format, there's no overtly visible, physical 'punctuation'...no logical cue-points (such as the end of a side...) that force you to stop before your ear/brain gets tired. Yeah, duh, I know...you can just stop whevever you decide, but sad old gits like me have the equivalent of 'muscle-memory' when it comes to vinyl: our wrinkled old brains and bodies have grown physically comfortable with it.

But on the other hand, CD (and mpg3s) perfectly fits the 'flow' of a mix-album or live set: can't really imagine listening to something like the Youngsta live @ Forward thing on vinyl.

originaldrum
19-10-2004, 04:02 AM
"latecomer who wants to speak more on the bashment topic"

when speaking about jamaican music it is always important to remember the oversimplification of the nameing of genre's, "reggae music" has been oft quoted as just the sound of the muted up and down strum that is so prevalant in the music (chk-chk) , dancehall is called so purely as it was the popular music in the dance-halls of jamaica from the eighties onwards.

bashment is just the current term for dancehall music, the difference probably being in the nature of the "dance-hall" moving from the halls and outdoors in to the club spaces which are more popular in the states and in particular places like miami.




p.s. to the side somewhat - if you've never seen iration steppas or aba shanti i at the brixton rec basketball court, do your self a BIG favour

hamarplazt
19-10-2004, 07:48 PM
I got One Way on Vinyl and it's split into three twelves, so that it's broken down into nice, bite-sized, easily-digestable chunks.


I got it as a promo CD first, but then bought the vinyl, and yes, you can actually see it as three separate EPs in one cover (each with a vocal driven "hit" and three tracky instrumentals, even). But I would have enjoyed it much more if he had really tried to make it work as an album. I know this isn't supposed to be album music, but all the more of a challenge then... One Way could have been the Frequencies of grime, I think, if it was handled right. Now it's more like the Jus Unique of grime. Not bad either.

Totally agree about the CD format, BTW.

matt ob
21-10-2004, 03:10 PM
I was just thinking of the potential, particularly for the 'FWD' grime, to spill out into the album orientated 'home listening' market, maybe even developing the possibility of 'Ambient Grime' (which already exists in my mind). Sort of inevitable, I reckon...

Ambient Grime? Well, Kode 9's Sign of the Dub / Stalker 10" has a track which doesn't have a beat but is pretty heavy and absorbing. Doubt if he'd be happy about it being called Ambient Grime though!

bun-u
21-10-2004, 03:33 PM
I minidisc'ed Roll deep on Rinse last night so that I could listen to on my cycle ride to New Cross today (dangerous listening to headphones on my bike I know, but it gets me through it). It starts off ok - I get the brilliant Trim on form, then cos I get the timing all wrong the show finishes and for the next 30 minutes I have to put up with a dubstep/sub-low show - playing the likes of Mark One, Plasticman etc, which I stick with, but only goes to reinforce my thinking that this stuff is terrible, devoid of anything. I simply can't place the sort of people who could be into it. The grime/eski entourage would do well to stay well clear of this shit and instead maybe court a more fruitful relationship with soulful 2 step...to create a kind of UK equivalenet of the rap / r'n'b axis.

Grievous Angel
21-10-2004, 08:32 PM
Am I the only one thinking that the majority of truly-integrated-records within all kinds of rave derived music are EPs rather than albums proper?
No. The only truly integrated long players in dance music are DJ mixes.

I might make an exception for Dubnobasswithmyheadman, Orbital and the Orb, but not much else.

hamarplazt
22-10-2004, 11:22 AM
No. The only truly integrated long players in dance music are DJ mixes.

I might make an exception for Dubnobasswithmyheadman, Orbital and the Orb, but not much else.

Recorded DJ mixes have never really done that much for me, but obviously it's how most of the stuff is meant to be heard. Sometimes, though, some longplayers manages to get it right, and it is exceptions, but all the more a treat then. Don't know about Dubnobasswithmyheadman and Orbital and Orb - if their albums work as albums, it's probably because they're more or less moving away from dance music. But something like The Prodigys Experience and one of my all time favorites, Biochip Cs Biocalypse - totally integrated albums and still utter rave with no excuses or tacked on guests.

As for EPs, they have just the right length I think - long enough to be listened to as a kind of whole, presenting different aspects and ideas, but short enough be neither enervatingly uniform or, in the attempt to avoid that uniformity, put-on ecclectic.

matt ob
22-10-2004, 12:48 PM
I minidisc'ed Roll deep on Rinse last night so that I could listen to on my cycle ride to New Cross today (dangerous listening to headphones on my bike I know, but it gets me through it). It starts off ok - I get the brilliant Trim on form, then cos I get the timing all wrong the show finishes and for the next 30 minutes I have to put up with a dubstep/sub-low show - playing the likes of Mark One, Plasticman etc, which I stick with, but only goes to reinforce my thinking that this stuff is terrible, devoid of anything. I simply can't place the sort of people who could be into it. The grime/eski entourage would do well to stay well clear of this shit and instead maybe court a more fruitful relationship with soulful 2 step...to create a kind of UK equivalenet of the rap / r'n'b axis.

Out of interest, what is it that you find so terrible about the dubstep sound? Personally, I didn't rate the Mark One album and have only heard a couple of decent tunes by Plasticman. Come to think of it, there is a lot of gash being released but that's the same with any genre isn't it?

bun-u
22-10-2004, 01:24 PM
Out of interest, what is it that you find so terrible about the dubstep sound? Personally, I didn't rate the Mark One album and have only heard a couple of decent tunes by Plasticman. Come to think of it, there is a lot of gash being released but that's the same with any genre isn't it?

I find the sound flat, like techstep but slower or crooklyn dub but poorly orchestrated, and - no energy, no unexpected sounds, boring. I guess I want to provoke someone into explaining its appeal

matt ob
22-10-2004, 01:57 PM
I find the sound flat, like techstep but slower or crooklyn dub but poorly orchestrated, and - no energy, no unexpected sounds, boring. I guess I want to provoke someone into explaining its appeal

I agree that a lot of the output does have that dull-as-ditchwater sound that's reminiscent of tech step. However, there is some deeper stuff out there like Kode 9 / Artwork / Digital Mystikz, who I think are leading the way at the moment. Some of the stuff on Rag n Bone is also very good, coming from a more old school / electro background.

Logan Sama
23-10-2004, 06:25 AM
Hiya all,

I received an e-mail from a guy recently named Matt recommending I checked out the site due to the interest in our music from the perspective of music lovers in general, rather than hardcore dyed-in-the-wool fans.

This is an interesting debate you have going, and something I could quite easily write a dissertation in haha Although I've just got back from Bashy@Fabric and certainly don't have the energy. I'm only online because I'm burning off 100 cds manually. :|

There's various angles you can approach the "What Is UKG?" question from. The first one is do you consider "Garage" and "UK Garage" to be the same genre. If you do then you would have to back track all the way back to Larry and Paradise Garage's music policy. If you don't then you only have to start from the origins of the scene in London.

I was of the opinion that when the name "Garage" was used for a tune, I forgot the letters "UK". I held this opinion for many years. It meant I could open myself to playing a set with the original ethos of Larry Levan's selection at the place where Garage was born. Play whatever the hell evokes a reaction for you as a dj or music listener. Where a gay black man can play Funk, Disco and Soft Rock to a multi-racial, multi-sexual crowd, then pretty much anything goes. This was my easy explaination for the confusing opposing styles of music that were coming out of the UK Garage scene from the start of the Speed Garage era in 1996. It was merely people drawing on whatever sounds they felt like and anything goes. From the heavily House influenced sounds of Todd Edwards and Grant Nelson, to the RnB 2 Step beat sped up to 130bpm, to the sub bass lines used experimentally by Tim Deluxe and Armand Van Helden in order to fuse House and Jungle into one music form. In the raves though, it was always the tunes with the biggest bass that got the reactions.

While "Dem 2's Step To Heaven" mix of Cloud 9 "Don't You Want Me?" or Tin Moore are often mentioned as the first ever 2 step tunes, it is interesting to note a tune called "endorphins" by Sky Cap which came out at the same sort of time. Instead of adopting a sped up RnB style, this early 2 step track uses some very harsh sounds and a thundering sub bass behind it. Very reminiscent of some of the current sounds used in "Grime" and Dubstep/Fwd.

Over the past few years of being well into the crew scene I have taken on an entirely new perspective. As a white kid living in Essex I spent my early and mid teens mainly listening to the recently deceased Kurt Cobain with fond memories, along with Faith No More, Pearl Jam, The Pixies, Soundgarden and Stone Temple Pilots. Most of the young black guys who are the driving force behind the new "grimey" sound spend their teens listening to their parents old soul and reggae collection, whilst raving to Jungle.

In around 1997 Jungle began to change into something different and for whatever reason, UK Garage with it's sub bass driven 2 step and 4/4 beats became the in sound. Back then the music was purely Dance orientated. Strict bpm ranges, thriving rave scene and strong underground sales as djing was the skill most young men wanted to master. Over the years as more and more inner city kids, who had grown up listening to Bounty Killer, Beenie Man, Super Cat and Capleton as well as Jay Z, Biggie, Tupac, Big Pun, DMX alongside Bassman, Eksman, Stevie Hyper D and Skibbadee, began to migrate over into the UK Garage scene so did the focus move away from djing, to the far cheaper hobby of mcing. Any mc who was big in Garage and is over the age of 20 was a drum and bass mc in their youth. You can name anyone. B Live, Wiley, Godsgift, Riko, Viper, Neat... the list goes on. And while originally the format was for simple hosting, some cheesey lines and a few tongue twisters... much like Jungle mcing, the slower tempo meant that more content could be fitted in. Much like how the under 20's mc's of today tend to move from Garage down the bpm ladder into hip hop tempo beats in order to make themselves "artists" as they feel the slower the tempo, the more pignant and meaningful their rhymes. The fact that Jay Z and Ludacris have been rapping on 130bpm beats for donkey's years not-withstanding.

Now the influence of the mc doesn't have any direct influence on the sound and the actual output of producers. But indirectly it did.

When So Solid formed as a crew from various components of Delight FM and Supreme FM, their level of mcing was far above that of the traditional host mcs, and they wanted to showcase this work they were evidently putting in. So slowly but surely, instead of vocal dub mixes with short vocal hooks in 8 bar bursts followed with breakdowns and drops of instrumental sections, fully instrumental bass driven beats became the standard for their sets. So Solid even began forming their own production camp to engineer beats exclusively for them to ride on dubplate and go on to release. The equipment available to them at the time pre-dates even the standard cracked fruity loops/VST Plug Ins/Cracked Soundforge combination favoured by every 16 year old bedroom garage producer nowadays. Music Generator on the Playstation was used to make Dilemma and Oh No so the legend goes. The Masterstepz track "Melody" was credited as the inspiration for Dilemma. Melody of course sampling the break from Busta Rhymes - Put Your Hands Where My Eyes Can See and coupled with a speaker destroying sub bass.

So there you had the start of the "grime" scene. Following So Solid, SPP and Ladies Hit Squad joined together (already childhood friends) to form Pay As You Go Cartel. Again they had their own production team, and a gentleman named Wiley produced a track called Know We in 2000. Taking the basic formula of So Solid and expanding on it further they also, like So Solid, ended up being signed, but they split up before an album could be released. Had that album came out and done well, tracks like Eskimo and Creeper might have never been made, as their album was very much song driven with a strong yet skippy 2 step sound to it. Again taking the old school garage sound and infusing it with even more hip hop, bashment and jungle sounds and styles, the music carried on evolving.

One of the most famous producers involved in bringing in the Bashment sound and vibe to the garage scene was Sticky. Working with vocalists producing songs over stripped down bass driven tracks with stiff minimal beats, his sound again took the music further down the path towards the sound we have today. The huge success of Booo, which could easily be passed off as a straight up UK Ragga record, saw a great number of immitations as well as bringing the bashment style that was infused into the subconscious of most of the mainly young black audience to the forefront of the UK Garage sound.

At the same time Wookie had been making huge tracks for a few years. While his tunes were always heavily bass driven and with mad beats, he managed to keep his production levels high and his tracks tremendously intricate. Whether they were vocals or instrumentals, they always got a good reaction. From Scrappy to Little Man remix tp Far East, Wookie was smashing the clubs and pirates. His tracks, along with Sticky's successfully gained huge exposure in the club scene, as well as in the burgeoning pirate radio crew scene.

Pirate Radio played a massive part in the transformation of this music from a straight up Dance music to a now uncategorizable genre. While tremendously popular with the small but growing crowd of MC fans, most crews had to rely on self promoted small scale events to get play outs. Large events were still focussed on the role of the Host mc with the limelight falling on the dj. Vocalists may well do a PA, but Artists as we know it were usually unseen on the live scene. When Craig David got to number 2 with Rewind and Neutrino got a number 1 with Bound For Da Reload, it opened the eyes of many people that they could take on a role above that of simply the mc who headlines raves. They could be album selling artists.

As soon as people like Craig David, So Solid, Pay As You Go and Lady Dynamite moved on into the world of mainstream major label album releases, the music changed forever. Not in any noticeable way, but just in the minds of the underground artists. The commercial house formula of superstar djs and producers making one off hits with vocalists who are often never heard of again had been in place in the garage scene for many years, but the successes of artists to have emerged from our scene opened people's eyes as to the potential and to their own importance.

The focus shifted away from the producer slightly and was fully onto the MC. It was this era which saw Wiley and Dizzee reach a level of popularity which had been unseen before on the underground scene. One should note that while both are fantastic live performers and recording artists, both too are ingenious producers. For some reason unknown to myself, we saw a total death in "vocal" songs, and a slew of fully MC based tracks coming out. Had artists like Wiley utilised singers alongside their own mic skills and productions at the time of eskimo and creeper I think this music would be at a level of mainstream international recognition by now.

However I've waffled long enough. I could talk about how producers like El B, Noodles, Jay Da Flex, Wookie and Zed Bias followed by Oris Jay and DnD took a simple sound and extrapolated it into an entire scene existing almost on it's own. But that probably deserves more space than a paragraph and someone more knowledgeable than myself to go through it's history.

And the sun's coming up and I have only managed to get 22 cds burnt as i keep forgetting to swap the burnt ones with the fresh blanks.

So I'll leave you with that. Let the debating continue!

Logan Sama
23-10-2004, 06:28 AM
Oh yes...

Might I also point out that while Hip Hop is the music of the young urban population in America... the music of the young population in Jamaica is Reggae. A form of music which is very similar to hip hop, and retains many of the same fundamentals, but sounds and operates entirely differently.... ring any bells?

originaldrum
24-10-2004, 10:31 AM
thanks for dropping by logan sama - great post

captain easychord
24-10-2004, 06:39 PM
logan's a big DJ as well (www.eskibeat.co.uk)

joe
24-10-2004, 08:46 PM
I find the sound flat, like techstep but slower or crooklyn dub but poorly orchestrated, and - no energy, no unexpected sounds, boring. I guess I want to provoke someone into explaining its appeal
the fwd stuff is dj tools basicly - when cut up by a skilled dj it sounds sweet... my only experience of seeing the stuff played out was at the rephlex grime launch night, which was pretty much mark one & plasticman taking it in turns to dj all night. mark one was flat & boring, plasticman was exciting and edgy.

the best thing to compare it to would be minimal techno:

djed badly = tedium
djed well = excellent

bassnation
27-10-2004, 02:16 PM
not for those of us who still love it obsessively, as sad as it is, 12 years on.

besides everyone knows it lives on through numerous genres including grime, 2-step and even US rnb.

appleblim
29-10-2004, 04:21 PM
wow, many things to say on this whole thing.....

been a regular at fwd>> for two years now, and checked out several grimey raves includin Fonti Dem Wanti at Ocean some time back, and have just put on a night of this sound in Bath, where Necta Selecta of the legendary Nopalumbo raves (where skream/geeneus/chef and other rinse nutters who played were seen jumping about behind the dex with gleeful grins at the mental response they were getting!) and DJ Blazey (who reps for Black Ops in the south west and whose tune 'exorcist' is getting battered by slimzee & others) played up a storm...

i think the main point is that there aren't such rigid distinctions between grime and fwd/dubstep sounds....these scenes cross over massively, including the breakstep thing....geeneus drops Vex'd and Zinc....Slimzee drops Horsepower.....Plastic drops everything from vocals to Oris, to Toasty Boy to well....pretty much anything good!

no doubt that Plastic is a very important ambassador, students have heard of him thru the rephlex thing, and the grime scene respect him massively.....i saw him in Bristol recently, at a rave called Subloaded, such a big jolt of electricity thru the crowd when he stepped up...after seeing him loads of times at Fwd it was wicked to see him get a proper rave reception......place went mental at every tune he dropped!

dunno if everyones caught onto his remix of "gype riddem" by IMP Batch, forthcoming on his own terrorrhythm label......wicked tune! u've probs heard it, lots of breathy flutes...really stands out in a set!

also, tune called "lift off" by macarbe unit....it isn't even grime/garage/dubstep...wtf is it?!! reminds me of some Octave One type Detroit shizzle........gonna be massive...

anyhoo big up woebot and luka for some of the best writing on the web, and big up all other dissensus members, hope i get to chat with u all proper some time

peace

mms
29-10-2004, 04:24 PM
yeah lift off - macabre unit is incredible..

ambrose
12-01-2005, 06:21 PM
where can i get that macabre unit tune?
it sounds a bit like the macabre unit tune on bingo beats 3

dwaggin
12-11-2006, 04:54 AM
I enjoyed reading through the thread, and getting a lesson in the progress of dubstep, or electro shit, or eskibeat. I am a dumbass foreigner, but these records have been draining my account since the Dub War parties started my appreciation to dubstep. I enjoy records from many scenes, for they tend to blend together well to me. I agree there's a Jamaican thread to be traced through this. Logan, I bow to your knowledge. In reggaeton I've not found a lot of good songs. Mostly it's been about Zion e Lennox "Yo Soy".

tox
12-11-2006, 08:02 PM
Very interesting thread. This forum could prove to be a real time capsule.

Would this be a good place to ask for some links to some good pre-grime/eski/sublow garage mixes? While I was aware of the scene at the time, it was only through the chart stuff, and the tail end of 2step (MJ Cole's 2nd LP and The Streets first)...

Guybrush
12-11-2006, 09:08 PM
Would this be a good place to ask for some links to some good pre-grime/eski/sublow garage mixes? While I was aware of the scene at the time, it was only through the chart stuff, and the tail end of 2step (MJ Cole's 2nd LP and The Streets first)...
I second that request!

scarboi
12-11-2006, 10:08 PM
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Smoove-Presents-Street-Beats-Featuring/dp/B0000C24JA/sr=8-1/qid=1163372857/ref=sr_1_1/202-2438492-7715819?ie=UTF8&s=music

Its the best mix of early dubstep/breaks/eight bar that I have.


Respect to DJ Slimzee

viktorvaughn
16-03-2007, 02:59 PM
On that Flex i think...

The PAUG comp with Gods Gift and Wiley on mic and Geeneus and Slimzee mixing is my fave grimey garage artefact. It's amazing, though i wish Will has more of the mic time.

The Bingo beats I, II and III (mixed by Jammin, Zed Bias and Slimzee respectively) are all worth looking into. II and especially III are composed of that breaky grimey garage Slimzee used to play, with proto-dubsteppers like Artwerk's 'Red', and bits from Horsepower Productions and Slaughter Mob in there too.

Sounds of the Pirates mixed by Zed Bias is also good, though pretty standard canonical 2-step as far as i remember rather than 8-bar or whatever.

And Dubstep Allstars I definitely is in the mix there.

The set of Agent X and Geeneus from 2002 on Rinse on Barefiles is great too.

And Sketch'E has done a mix of early Wiley and other producers tunes which is worth listening too. I can up this later;)

Diggedy Derek
16-03-2007, 04:07 PM
Quite nostalgic reading, this thread, with the great Logan Sama dropping in for the first time.

benjybars
16-03-2007, 04:27 PM
On that Flex i think...

The PAUG comp with Gods Gift and Wiley on mic and Geeneus and Slimzee mixing is my fave grimey garage artefact. It's amazing, though i wish Will has more of the mic time.

The Bingo beats I, II and III (mixed by Jammin, Zed Bias and Slimzee respectively) are all worth looking into. II and especially III are composed of that breaky grimey garage Slimzee used to play, with proto-dubsteppers like Artwerk's 'Red', and bits from Horsepower Productions and Slaughter Mob in there too.

Sounds of the Pirates mixed by Zed Bias is also good, though pretty standard canonical 2-step as far as i remember rather than 8-bar or whatever.

And Dubstep Allstars I definitely is in the mix there.

The set of Agent X and Geeneus from 2002 on Rinse on Barefiles is great too.

And Sketch'E has done a mix of early Wiley and other producers tunes which is worth listening too. I can up this later;)


any chance you could up everything u just mentioned?? ;) ;) ;) :D that PAUG cd is 50 on amazon... FIFTY QUID!!!

gumdrops
16-03-2007, 04:46 PM
agreed with viktor vaughn on the brilliance of that 2cd PAUG set. bingo beats vol 3 is well worth looking into if only for dizzee and DEE on it emceeing over some seriously avant-garage beats.

viktorvaughn
17-03-2007, 04:41 AM
agreed with viktor vaughn on the brilliance of that 2cd PAUG set. bingo beats vol 3 is well worth looking into if only for dizzee and DEE on it emceeing over some seriously avant-garage beats.


Yeah the first CD of that comp is pretty waste, totally forgot about it. I swear Crazy D is on a track on that Bingo Beats comp too which kinda surprised me!

I'm gonna up all this isht tomorrow cos I'm gutted about Barefiles getting fucked over i'll do my little bit to re-inject some love for the Dissensus familia:cool:


--------------

PAUG Comp - http://www.sendspace.com/file/etcfoy

Bingo II - http://www.sendspace.com/file/az3hal

Sketch'E - Old Skool grime mix - http://download.yousendit.com/41A383E27FB4261A

Bingo III - http://www.sendspace.com/file/14r71i

Slimzee on Rinse 06 but playing all 02/3/4 dubs as far as i can tell. - http://www.sendspace.com/file/q9atdw

DJ Wonder and Pepperdan on Rinse 03 - http://www.sendspace.com/file/hc6hhz

Plasticman Rinse Jan 04, when Cha and Be were fresh dubs! quality. - http://download.yousendit.com/C0D88848787BF145

Don't worry Benjy it's all in the pipline!

benjybars
17-03-2007, 12:47 PM
Yeah the first CD of that comp is pretty waste, totally forgot about it. I swear Crazy D is on a track on that Bingo Beats comp too which kinda surprised me!

I'm gonna up all this isht tomorrow cos I'm gutted about Barefiles getting fucked over i'll do my little bit to re-inject some love for the Dissensus familia:cool:


--------------

PAUG Comp - http://www.sendspace.com/file/etcfoy


you badman viktor! any chance of the other stuff? :) :) :) :)

viktorvaughn
17-03-2007, 05:42 PM
Soon come Benjy, see post above. I'll assemble a nice little collection there with some choice Radio sets also.

benjybars
17-03-2007, 08:23 PM
Soon come Benjy, see post above. I'll assemble a nice little collection there with some choice Radio sets also.

your chess viktor!

viktorvaughn
18-03-2007, 06:59 PM
Heres the full list. I don't want to do too much proper CDs cos it's kinda cheeky, so I've done a few radio sets as well/instead.

PAUG Comp - http://www.sendspace.com/file/etcfoy

Bingo II - http://www.sendspace.com/file/az3hal

Sketch'E - Old Skool grime mix - http://download.yousendit.com/41A383E27FB4261A

Bingo III - http://www.sendspace.com/file/14r71i

Slimzee on Rinse 06 but playing mainly 02/3/4 dubs as far as i can tell. - http://www.sendspace.com/file/q9atdw

DJ Wonder and Pepperdan on Rinse 03 - http://www.sendspace.com/file/hc6hhz

Plasticman Rinse Jan 04, when Cha and Be were fresh dubs! quality. - http://download.yousendit.com/C0D88848787BF145

Roll Deep b2b Dynasty Crew on Freeze 03 - http://www.sendspace.com/file/90ergx

lissajou
21-03-2007, 01:43 AM
BIG.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QZ1FHmvGpM0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QZ1FHmvGpM0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

gabriel
21-03-2007, 12:49 PM
cheers for the links viktor, should make interesting listening :-)

what format is the pay as u go cd though? it says .ace - is that some kind of archiving thing? what do i need to open it? thanks...

viktorvaughn
21-03-2007, 01:03 PM
cheers for the links viktor, should make interesting listening :-)

what format is the pay as u go cd though? it says .ace - is that some kind of archiving thing? what do i need to open it? thanks...

.ace is zipped with winrar. Does anyone know if it can be opened with winzip? It can definitely be opened with winrar which is a free programme to download.

gabriel
21-03-2007, 03:40 PM
great, thanks, think i've got that...

IKoss
26-03-2007, 03:29 AM
thank god for(this,(thread)), message board(s),


...

-xx00xx00x

woops
31-03-2007, 03:58 PM
That Bingo Beats CD is FUCKING WICKED.

I liked it so much i <a href = "http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=275825EE7FE6706F">re upped</a> it.

viktorvaughn
03-04-2007, 04:09 PM
Something that has had me wondering within UKG....

Grime and Dubstep have been debated to death. They are in the papers for various reasons from time to time and plenty of music heads have heard of them.

2-step is stuck in some weird limbo with plenty of die-hard fans but a bit of a static scene with lots of older music getting played out rather than never stuff and a bit of a shortage of nights. (Correct me if i'm wrong, i am stabbing in the dark slightly here).

Canonical 4/4 like Todd Edwards is given props.

But there seems to be loads of bassline 4/4 garage with quite a cheap production aesthetic that it totally ignored by the blogging/forum massive. I live in Sheffield where 'Niche' rules the roost in terms of a hard clubbing, very working-class, banging-bassline speed-garage scene. Niche was actually the name of the club in which the music was played, but has transcended its physical locale to refer to the actual scene and music itself now. Sheffield is the mecca of the place, and the scene is wholly removed from your breaks/techy house student scene. It (and garage in general often) is viewed extremely scornfully (and myopically) by those frequenting such nights, which themselves can be boring as fuck.

But there seems to be a lack of any critical consideration of this music (not that critical appraisal is the be all and end all of course, just an observation).

Sure, it sounds basic and predictable, but no more so than 'Ice Rink', 'Jampie', or 'Cha'. It sounds wicked in a club (probably best hand-in-hand with some recreational drugs to be honest). I don't like it as much as the other garage permeations mentioned, it just seems that new 4/4 garage has gone a bit of the map. Part of this is probably down to the bad reputation Niche has up here for violence and drug-taking. The security was scarily thorough when i went, but there was a few mini fights and lots of people absolutely para on class As (including a 40-odd year old woman).

Any takers?:D

mistersloane
03-04-2007, 04:16 PM
Sounds great Viktor, up some or summat?

MATT MAson
03-04-2007, 04:21 PM
I remember Marcus Nasty being a total convert of Niche, telling me that was all he was going to play from now on. That was a while ago though.

The music I've heard does all seem to be pretty mindless regurgitations of speed garage to me, but maybe I just missed the point.

viktorvaughn
03-04-2007, 04:31 PM
Reading back my post, it sounds like i think Niche is really excellent!

That's funny about Marcus Nasty, maybe that's why Jammer fell out with him!

It is kinda rubbish in some ways and massively formulaic but its fun to dance to (mind you don't step on anyone's toes though). Tune to look out for is a Niche rmx of that 'Badman fwd Badman pull up' dancehall tune.

I'll up a mix.

sodiumnightlife
03-04-2007, 05:00 PM
I read a wee thing in mixmag a while ago about so called bassline house...is this the same thing you're talking about viktor? Mixmag billed it as a offshoot of speed garage so it sounds similar. Would definitely be interested in hearing a mix, i've lost that mixmag now and can't remember any of the names mentioned.

viktorvaughn
03-04-2007, 05:43 PM
I read a wee thing in mixmag a while ago about so called bassline house...is this the same thing you're talking about viktor? Mixmag billed it as a offshoot of speed garage so it sounds similar. Would definitely be interested in hearing a mix, i've lost that mixmag now and can't remember any of the names mentioned.

Yeah bassline house, speed garage and niche are all very closely related. It's often just billed as 'bassline'.

sodiumnightlife
03-04-2007, 06:40 PM
ah right ok well i look forward to checking out so mixes if you post any.

nomos
03-04-2007, 07:06 PM
this shop seems to specialize in that end of things: http://www.rewindrecords.co.uk/

i've listened to clips there.

borderpolice
03-04-2007, 07:48 PM
Currently there are no clubs in east london that play this kind of music as far as i can tell. the scene dried up completely. Dunno why, but probably to do with the associated violence.

If you know of any night, please let me know.

Noah Baby Food
03-04-2007, 08:50 PM
I wrote a big, eloquent post about this and then managed to close my browser window and lost the facking thing. So I'll try to be brief:

Bassline house IS the sound of the young working class North of England. I can't believe more Dissensus folks haven't heard of it. I live in Leeds and the kids call it "Casa's" (because the club that was originally known for playing it here is called Casa Loco...proper functionalist stuff here folks). It's everywhere. No-one writes about it on the internet...though no-one really wrote much about old "'ardkore" when it was actually happening either eh. I agree, a lot of this music is basically cheaply produced speed garage. But if you said that to the kids at the youth centre where I used to work in a very poor (and white) area of East Leeds, they'd ask you "what's garage?".

My mate Rampant runs Northern Line Records. They have Paleface, Flukes and Blackfinger amongst their producers. They're all getting constant bookings. They've just done a tune with Jamakabi. Grime MCs are queuing up to vocal their riddims. They constantly do 1000 straight out the gate of every 12" they put out. Why aren't bloggers talking about this? This is soundtracking a large part of the UK's youth...this stuff is important social history. Go down Leeds market and go to one of the many stalls solely selling bassline CDs, 6 for a fiver. Go to the DJ superstore on Vicar Lane and check the hundreds of white labels. This isn't just Leeds either.

Loads of these tunes use acapellas of current r'n'b/hip hop/cheesy dance tunes. There was one a while back of "Show Me Love" by Robin S. All the kids at my old work thought it was a new tune - this is real year-Zero stuff.

This music is WAY more popular than grime. I'm not saying BETTER, but more popular. Leeds-wise, grime was pretty big in Chapeltown (mainly black area of Leeds) a couple of years back. It's kinda died off unfortunately, and a lot of the audience and creators are now on bassline.

Honestly, do no "Dissensians" ever go down the market (I don't mean Borough), or actually talk to any working-class young people?

tate
03-04-2007, 09:13 PM
For what it's worth, there have been a few threads on dissensus over the years addressing bassline house. Here is one from last year, and eight posts into it, I link to two older threads with further discussion (one of which is from early '05 when Jess Harvell still posted here, those were the days!):

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=4336

nomos
03-04-2007, 09:36 PM
Why aren't bloggers talking about this?

I have no idea. I've been wanting to learn more for a while but there's not much information (though I think we had a good thread in 2005). Is there a bassline forum? I've picked up just a bit. Some of the Northern Line stuff is quite good. My friend Matt plays a little of that around here. It goes well with the 4x4 garage from a few years ago a nd there's a bit of crossover with the likes of Dexplicit and More2daFloor if I'm not mistaken.

EDit: Yeah, there we go. Thanks tate. I miss Jess. He always had something thoughtful to say.

viktorvaughn
03-04-2007, 09:39 PM
I wrote a big, eloquent post about this and then managed to close my browser window and lost the facking thing. So I'll try to be brief:

Bassline house IS the sound of the young working class North of England. I can't believe more Dissensus folks haven't heard of it. I live in Leeds and the kids call it "Casa's" (because the club that was originally known for playing it here is called Casa Loco...proper functionalist stuff here folks). It's everywhere. No-one writes about it on the internet...though no-one really wrote much about old "'ardkore" when it was actually happening either eh. I agree, a lot of this music is basically cheaply produced speed garage. But if you said that to the kids at the youth centre where I used to work in a very poor (and white) area of East Leeds, they'd ask you "what's garage?".

My mate Rampant runs Northern Line Records. They have Paleface, Flukes and Blackfinger amongst their producers. They're all getting constant bookings. They've just done a tune with Jamakabi. Grime MCs are queuing up to vocal their riddims. They constantly do 1000 straight out the gate of every 12" they put out. Why aren't bloggers talking about this? This is soundtracking a large part of the UK's youth...this stuff is important social history. Go down Leeds market and go to one of the many stalls solely selling bassline CDs, 6 for a fiver. Go to the DJ superstore on Vicar Lane and check the hundreds of white labels. This isn't just Leeds either.

Loads of these tunes use acapellas of current r'n'b/hip hop/cheesy dance tunes. There was one a while back of "Show Me Love" by Robin S. All the kids at my old work thought it was a new tune - this is real year-Zero stuff.

This music is WAY more popular than grime. I'm not saying BETTER, but more popular. Leeds-wise, grime was pretty big in Chapeltown (mainly black area of Leeds) a couple of years back. It's kinda died off unfortunately, and a lot of the audience and creators are now on bassline.

Honestly, do no "Dissensians" ever go down the market (I don't mean Borough), or actually talk to any working-class young people?

Glad somebody else has the perception of the sound. It seems like a very vibrant and hard-partying mainly white working-class party scene. The type of place where people might go every friday and Saturday and rinse all their money. I love how Northern it is too!

In Sheffield i don't think you will see the word 'garage' billed anywhere in connection with it - its strictly 'Niche' or 'Bassline'. I'm just upping a mix by Big Ang which is from April 07 so pretty much as current as it gets!

sodiumnightlife
03-04-2007, 10:43 PM
is it big in manchester as well? there was an awful program on about chavs in manchester the other day and they were all listening to stuff on their mobile phones that sounded like fast dance with mcs over it...they had a name for it that i didn't manage to catch.

aleksy
03-04-2007, 11:15 PM
You also get mcs on the oom-pah bangin Uprising variant. Garage hasn't completely colonised Yorkshire!

Noah Baby Food
04-04-2007, 08:39 AM
Glad somebody else has the perception of the sound. It seems like a very vibrant and hard-partying mainly white working-class party scene. The type of place where people might go every friday and Saturday and rinse all their money. I love how Northern it is too!

In Sheffield i don't think you will see the word 'garage' billed anywhere in connection with it - its strictly 'Niche' or 'Bassline'. I'm just upping a mix by Big Ang which is from April 07 so pretty much as current as it gets!

In Leeds the main DJs are Jamie Duggan, Shaun 'Banger' Scott and Danny Bond amongst others. The Northern Line stuff is more garagey and "blacker" sounding than a lot of it, but there is definite variations in the sound as a whole. Definitely a crossover with D'explicit, Agent X etc..."Bullacakes" was every kid round here's ringtone a couple of years back. You have your "womp womp" sort of bassy stuff that reminds me of Double 99/Ice Cream and all that old stuff, you have your cheesy Rhodes organ sound stuff (that I can't say I'm too keen on)...some of it does kinda border on cheesy hard house or old happy hardcore. In fact, happy hardcore is the closest comparison I can think of for the scene as a whole...the same demographic are into it, similar aesthetic. Similar limited palette of noises (as with early grime). There are MCs on the music, mainly old rave style 'hold tight/hands in the air' kinda crack but I have heard people chatting stuff with content over it.

It is quite a white working class vibe I guess, but the scene is very multi-racial and becoming more so...black and Asian kids round here dig it, it's pretty universal in a way that grime (unfortnately) never has been.

This dude, Wittyboy, is a friend of mine. Very talented lad, came from the grime scene, very good MC, decent producer, does hip hop too. He's now producing and DJing bassline, and has hooked up with Northen Line with his musical partner Nastee Boi (who's also sick) and doing very well by all accounts. I think you can tell his grimy background from his productions...it's not that far off from Narrows and Oddz and all them old school grime bods.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=123888856

And if you want to hear Nastee, myself, Krypto Kid and Wittyboy MCing (in that order) on a Hot Chip refix (not strictly garage eh), check Krypto's profile:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=14191106

Noah Baby Food
04-04-2007, 08:41 AM
is it big in manchester as well? there was an awful program on about chavs in manchester the other day and they were all listening to stuff on their mobile phones that sounded like fast dance with mcs over it...they had a name for it that i didn't manage to catch.

Dude, if you don't say "nigger", "paki" or "yid", please don't say "chav".

sodiumnightlife
04-04-2007, 08:57 AM
Dude, if you don't say "nigger", "paki" or "yid", please don't say "chav".

I don't really think chav is up there with any of those racial slurs...i don't mean anything insulting by chav. I'm 18, and the way i use it is to denote a group of people who dress a certain way, just as i would use emo, or indie kid. Or punk. Or goth. Beyond that it has no meaning. Schemie i believe to be an offensive term, chav isn't. Why do you feel so strongly about chav (out of interest?) I don't want to offend anyone.

viktorvaughn
04-04-2007, 09:14 AM
http://www.yousendit.com/download/QlVpZEU4ckkxUUEwTVE9PQ

Niche mix by Jamie Fergerson

sodiumnightlife
04-04-2007, 09:37 AM
Nice one, on the dl.

Noah Baby Food
04-04-2007, 09:49 AM
I don't really think chav is up there with any of those racial slurs...i don't mean anything insulting by chav. I'm 18, and the way i use it is to denote a group of people who dress a certain way, just as i would use emo, or indie kid. Or punk. Or goth. Beyond that it has no meaning. Schemie i believe to be an offensive term, chav isn't. Why do you feel so strongly about chav (out of interest?) I don't want to offend anyone.

Sorry mate, didn't mean to jump down your throat. No, it's not up there with those racial slurs, you're right...you can choose the way you dress but not what colour your skin is etc. I just have a hard time with the word personally, coz with a lot of *supposedly* open-minded educated people, "chav" seems to be an acceptable way of being snobbish about class. It's weird, having known and worked with folks who could be described thus, none of them have ever used the term in reference to themselves...it's always some other group of people. I'd just like to see more understanding between people in the UK, everyone comes under a label...works both ways I know, and this country has always been tribal with respect to youth cultures, so maybe I'm dreaming, I know... Conversely, I think "scally" is OK, but "chav" makes me think of posh folk looking down their noses. Anyway...back to the garage.

Are any of the old time garage DJ elite, E-Z, Dreem Team etc, playing any of this bassline crack? I know Cameo plays it.

sodiumnightlife
04-04-2007, 09:54 AM
nah i didn't feel like you jumped down my throat...chav can be used in a well snobbish way but it wasn't meant like that there. I never really associate "chav" with a class thing, i've known a fair few middle class chavs. Anyway, the download has just finished, looking forward to hearing this!

Noah Baby Food
04-04-2007, 09:58 AM
DLing this now...

viktorvaughn
04-04-2007, 10:14 AM
Nice one, on the dl.

Big Angs mix coming soon too.

mistersloane
04-04-2007, 10:19 AM
Big Angs mix coming soon too.

It's really nice to hear some blank dumb rave music for a change! Thanks Viktor, you're being really generous at the moment it's well appreciated.

sodiumnightlife
04-04-2007, 10:24 AM
This is really really good stuff...i'm only on track 4 but am liking this one especially. I mean, this isn't really pushing any boundaries, but i can definitely imagine going crazy for all of these tunes in a club. It'd be interesting to have a discussion about the differences between music that is perceived as functional and music that is perceived as pushing things forward. Is the labelling of any music functional simply a snobbish thing to do? Does all music start as something functional before being "elevated"? Who elevates it? Dubstep has always been club music really hasn't it? Yet now it is being lauded (rightly in my opinion) as a genre within much many new sounds are being created. yet reading earlier in this thread Logan was talking about how grime really came into its own when it moved away from the clubs and onto the radio; it stopped having to make people dance. Did grime lose its functionality then or did it just take on another purpose? But there i am going back to discussing dubstep and grime rather than bassline. Viktor, how old is this scene?

mms
04-04-2007, 10:41 AM
how on earth do you open an ace file?

i downloaded win ace but still can't open it?

mistersloane
04-04-2007, 11:00 AM
unaceX works for mac to unzip them files...

Noah Baby Food
04-04-2007, 11:01 AM
Massive props to ya for this viktor...absolutely sick! This is the kind of bassline stuff I love...ravey, hard, rudeboy business with just the right amount of cheesy euphoria...none of them organ shits!

I still love grime, but it's making things hard for me right now. DLed that SKVibemakers Bloodline mixtape off myspace the other week...and deleted it straight away. I know they're Skepta's mates and they're right hard and that, but I love Dipset, and if I want to listen to 'em I'll draw for "Diplomatic Immunity", not that. Depressing, and all the skits about how they make the real hard street music and other people make "party grime" or whatever...but not naming any names or calling anyone out! Compare that to the sheer joy of this Jamie Ferguson tape and you can see why the yoots are crossing over to the bassline. No hating or bandwagon-jumping on my part here, just an observation.

And for those of you who like that "continuum" thingy...well, this blatantly fits right in, don't it?

Sick and mad bassline on track 9..."White boy...this is the WICKEDEST SOUND!"...hahaha!

viktorvaughn
04-04-2007, 11:04 AM
It's really nice to hear some blank dumb rave music for a change! Thanks Viktor, you're being really generous at the moment it's well appreciated.


Yes mate, sometimes you just wanna 'get dumb/retarded' in the best possible way.

No worries about the tunage, i'm just glad people are enjoying it. I have an Agent X mix which is pretty interesting to listen to since he used to be more on 2-step and proto-grime i think. The stuff in his mix is totally 4/4, very similar to Niche. It doesn't have that kind of whiney twisted basslines that characterises a lot of Niche though.

Noah Baby Food
04-04-2007, 11:10 AM
haha...that's the dulcet tones of my boy Rampant Richie J on track 10..."Northern Line Records...shut your mout'!"

viktorvaughn
04-04-2007, 11:12 AM
Viktor, how old is this scene?


Not sure mate, maybe Noah knows better? I'm guessing it coalesced around the early-mid 00s, there is some shared ground with round-bassed garage of that time i guess.

Noah Baby Food
04-04-2007, 11:20 AM
I remember knocking about with this girl from Little London (badman ends) here in Leeds back in 2002...her and all her mates were rocking this stuff back then, pretty much the same, not much difference in sound. And Casa's were playing it back then too (that place can be scary...sells no alcohol, full of badmen...i fell asleep in there a couple of times which wasn't a good idea..hehe). Don't know how long it had been going for back then, or what it grew out of really...it's obviously garage but it wasn't the same crowd. I can find out from cats round here though.

Interestingly, first proto-grime I had heard at this time (apart from So Solid and More Fire) was a PAUG tape off this lass, which pricked my ears up big-time. That lot weren't feeling the Pay As U Go though really...it was bassline and stuff like Ashanti and Miss Dynamite.

viktorvaughn
04-04-2007, 11:24 AM
Massive props to ya for this viktor...absolutely sick!

Compare that to the sheer joy of this Jamie Ferguson tape and you can see why the yoots are crossing over to the bassline.

And for those of you who like that "continuum" thingy...well, this blatantly fits right in, don't it?



Yeah, it just has so much more release than Grime. It's quite dark with the relentless bass, but its quite 'up' with the cheesy r'n'b vox etc. Some of the sounds are really 'childish' in a way that definitely reminds me of happy hardcore. Yeah and I love the tacit encouragement to take drugs by pricing a can of Red-Stripe at &#163;4.50!

In Niche it almost reminded me of minimal in the fact that you have 4 hours of an absolute constant tempo with all kinds of shit woven around that single metronomic beat - like you are listening to a single track that lasts for 4 hours with loads of little sub-segments. Some tunes were a bit euro-house flavoured (they were pretty shit actually), some had a sound palettes similar to Grime, a few had a dancehall/grime vocal on and some had a little of that trendy electro sound (you know the synth that sounds like the rubbing of a balloon?!) but the tempo was all exactly the same.

In terms of attitude it was quite interesting in comparison to Grime. At Dirty Canvas last week there was absolutely no attitude, me and my sister were dancing around to all the 2-steppers like nutters and there was a strong 'trendy'/middle-class white male (not a cuss as I fit that one million percent!) contingent. All this despite the media focus on violence. It's like that contingent needs to be there to legitimise the event as art or something rather than just a rave full of kids.

Conversely Niche, which has had no critical attention whatsoever, had the atmosphere i bet grime raves had 4 years ago - no music tourists (well I guess I was a bit! but I was also having it to the max), 10 or 12 rudeboys standing around the loos imposingly,a guy with blood poring out of his nose on the dancefloor, bouncers all wearing stab-proof vests, having to look into a camera at the entrance and those hand-held metal detectors at the door. I felt a bit wary at first but as the drugs kick in everyone was going for it a bit more.

viktorvaughn
04-04-2007, 11:27 AM
There are MCs on the music, mainly old rave style 'hold tight/hands in the air' kinda crack but I have heard people chatting stuff with content over it.

Be well interested to hear some bars over bassline...will investigate link. Cheers.

mistersloane
04-04-2007, 11:35 AM
I really like the mixing of pop/gay/euro and basslines, it's very funny. It's just everything chucked over garage, innit? Quite free really.

benjybars
04-04-2007, 01:05 PM
yeah nice one viktor:cool:

benjybars
04-04-2007, 01:11 PM
just listened to wittyboy's tunes..... absolutely LOVED the first three!! can blatantly see his grime background.. heavy!

weird how this sound seems to be exclusively found in the north... i seen a couple of threads on rwd but it basically gets gunned by everyone..including logan

mos dan
04-04-2007, 01:23 PM
I really like the mixing of pop/gay/euro and basslines, it's very funny. It's just everything chucked over garage, innit? Quite free really.

you should check out the faggatronix podcast on www.dot-alt.com (might have to scroll down a bit). GO DUMB!

Logan Sama
04-04-2007, 05:18 PM
Bassline is huge.

Like Dubstep it is much bigger in terms of actual club nights and out put than Grime, but like Dubstep a lot of it I just don't really get.

I had a big argument on RWD because to me nearly all of the 4/4 bassline stuff sounds like a knock off of Bullacake by Dexplicit or Fyrus by Sticky.

It's really simple cheesy stuff. It reminds me of Happy Hardcore in it's cringeworthy cheesiness, but like happy hardcore it is loved by working class northerners as well.

viktorvaughn
04-04-2007, 05:19 PM
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xpqjwb
Big Ang - April 07 Mix

"Big Ang goes darker this month with a selection of the finest bass trax that are available (or not!)"

sodiumnightlife
04-04-2007, 10:45 PM
It's really simple cheesy stuff. It reminds me of Happy Hardcore in it's cringeworthy cheesiness, but like happy hardcore it is loved by working class northerners as well.

yeh...loads of people listen to happy hardocre up here in scotland and i HATE it....there's nthing i can find to like in it. But i really like this bassline mixtape. interesting what people are saying about it not growing out of garage but being something similar. and also i hear quite alot of similarities to some 2002 agent x radio shows i've heard.

I'm kind of ignorant about this: during 2-step (and 4x4s) hey day, how far spread was it around the country? Was the influence for this bassline house spread from london at that time?

viktorvaughn
04-04-2007, 11:07 PM
Agent X Mix - This is big.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/8utj8e

sodiumnightlife
05-04-2007, 12:01 AM
jesus christ you're spoling us. these mixtapes just get better and better. I wonder if anyone plays this music in glasgow...

scarboi
05-04-2007, 05:25 AM
I'm curious, does anyone like that Stanton Warriors track with Sway on it?

The whole idea of a UK Hiphop/Grime MC over Nu Skool Breaks is kinda mind bending for me.

Its pretty good though, Sway seems more comfortable over breaks than Grime.


Its very commercial sounding, but still good.


Sway's got some clever lines in it too.

Alright back to talking about bassline.

Logan Sama
05-04-2007, 05:27 AM
Stanton Warriors made their name doing 4/4 mixes for Tuff Jams label, so them doing "Garage" collabs isn't too far fetched

scarboi
05-04-2007, 05:39 AM
Yeah, I'm just barely getting into some of this stuff now so its a bit weird seeing all the connections.

Breaks seems to be such a looked down on genre for most people in dubstep + grime, but it is changing a bit with the times.

Like you wouldn't have a breaks producer called Merka before grime you know?

Or Baobinga making grime influenced shit as Pablo Beatz.


Still a lot of it is just too cheesy for me, probably my same issue with a lot of 4x4 garage these days.

Still need to do a lot of digging.

viktorvaughn
05-04-2007, 07:02 AM
Stanton Warriors made their name doing 4/4 mixes for Tuff Jams label, so them doing "Garage" collabs isn't too far fetched
That Chase and Status (i think they made breaky stuff before dnb?) and RD tune on that tip as well. Not too good really but Trims bars were the highlight.

Ned
05-04-2007, 03:12 PM
Breaks seems to be such looked down on genre for most people in dubstep + grime, but it is changing a bit with the times.

Anyone who likes dubstep will probably enjoy the breaks sections of Tayo's recent Fabric mix.

viktorvaughn
19-06-2007, 09:16 PM
POW

More Bassline goodies for those that were feeling it -


Something old -

Big Ang's January 2003 Niche mix
http://www.sendspace.com/file/nkfqrn


Something new -

DJ Q - 4x4 mis CD Vol 5.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/utdtih

sodiumnightlife
19-06-2007, 09:59 PM
i do like a gooood bit of bassssline like. cheers.

sodiumnightlife
20-06-2007, 12:07 PM
how big is that heartbroken tune? i've been hearing it all over the place, and deservedly, it's fantastic.