UKG vs UKG vs UKG

redcrescent

Well-known member
Questions, questions

To those with The Knowledge:
How well has MarkOne's One Way (which I like a lot) gone down with people? In more general terms, how well does Grime translate from stage and radio sets/battles, single tracks on 12"s and EPs to full-length albums available in high-street shops? I love Wiley's and both of Dizzee's, of course, but I can think of a few examples where the emergence of albums (especially on major labels) and coverage in the mainstream media (who are usually clueless and insensitive) was a clear sign that a genre was fast approaching its expiry date (the prime case being, I think, drum 'n bass). As I'm nowhere near anything that's happening on the ground, I hope I'm very wrong about this and someone closer to the sources can set the facts straight.
On another tip: Whatever happened to "bouncement", a genre term of sorts coined by the Big Dada label to describe a brand of UK hiphop with ragga/UKG/electro-inspired beats? I recall there was a small and short-term hype (here on the continent, at least) after the release of the Extra Yard comp (Roots Manuva, Infinite Livez, Ty, New Flesh, Lotek HiFi, Gamma, etc) about 2-3 years ago. Most of the artists have gone their way and keep putting out material (some great, some missable), but I never heard anyone calling anything "bouncement" again... (but what's in a name -and a silly one at that- anyway?)
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
I like One Way a lot, but I don't think it completely manages to square the electronic-dance-music-as-an-album circle. Not surprising, really, so few albums do. Too many of the tracks are a bit too similar. Not that they're bad on their own, it's just somewhat superflous to have something like seven tracks basically doing the same thing. It would be much more focused if it was two or three tracks shorter, would work much better as an album. I blame (as always) the CD-standart. One Way isn't even long for a CD, but there's still no shame in making an album just 35 or 40 minutes long. Of course, it would probably be called an EP. Am I the only one thinking that the majority of truly-integrated-records within all kinds of rave derived music are EPs rather than albums proper?
 

kek-w

Member
I got One Way on Vinyl and it's split into three twelves, so that it's broken down into nice, bite-sized, easily-digestable chunks.

Yeah, I reckon I'd struggle listening to the CD version all the way thru...that's one of the things I never much liked about the CD format, there's no overtly visible, physical 'punctuation'...no logical cue-points (such as the end of a side...) that force you to stop before your ear/brain gets tired. Yeah, duh, I know...you can just stop whevever you decide, but sad old gits like me have the equivalent of 'muscle-memory' when it comes to vinyl: our wrinkled old brains and bodies have grown physically comfortable with it.

But on the other hand, CD (and mpg3s) perfectly fits the 'flow' of a mix-album or live set: can't really imagine listening to something like the Youngsta live @ Forward thing on vinyl.
 

originaldrum

from start till done
"latecomer who wants to speak more on the bashment topic"

when speaking about jamaican music it is always important to remember the oversimplification of the nameing of genre's, "reggae music" has been oft quoted as just the sound of the muted up and down strum that is so prevalant in the music (chk-chk) , dancehall is called so purely as it was the popular music in the dance-halls of jamaica from the eighties onwards.

bashment is just the current term for dancehall music, the difference probably being in the nature of the "dance-hall" moving from the halls and outdoors in to the club spaces which are more popular in the states and in particular places like miami.




p.s. to the side somewhat - if you've never seen iration steppas or aba shanti i at the brixton rec basketball court, do your self a BIG favour
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
kek-w said:
I got One Way on Vinyl and it's split into three twelves, so that it's broken down into nice, bite-sized, easily-digestable chunks.

I got it as a promo CD first, but then bought the vinyl, and yes, you can actually see it as three separate EPs in one cover (each with a vocal driven "hit" and three tracky instrumentals, even). But I would have enjoyed it much more if he had really tried to make it work as an album. I know this isn't supposed to be album music, but all the more of a challenge then... One Way could have been the Frequencies of grime, I think, if it was handled right. Now it's more like the Jus Unique of grime. Not bad either.

Totally agree about the CD format, BTW.
 

matt ob

Member
Nick Gutterbreakz said:
I was just thinking of the potential, particularly for the 'FWD' grime, to spill out into the album orientated 'home listening' market, maybe even developing the possibility of 'Ambient Grime' (which already exists in my mind). Sort of inevitable, I reckon...

Ambient Grime? Well, Kode 9's Sign of the Dub / Stalker 10" has a track which doesn't have a beat but is pretty heavy and absorbing. Doubt if he'd be happy about it being called Ambient Grime though!
 

bun-u

Trumpet Police
I minidisc'ed Roll deep on Rinse last night so that I could listen to on my cycle ride to New Cross today (dangerous listening to headphones on my bike I know, but it gets me through it). It starts off ok - I get the brilliant Trim on form, then cos I get the timing all wrong the show finishes and for the next 30 minutes I have to put up with a dubstep/sub-low show - playing the likes of Mark One, Plasticman etc, which I stick with, but only goes to reinforce my thinking that this stuff is terrible, devoid of anything. I simply can't place the sort of people who could be into it. The grime/eski entourage would do well to stay well clear of this shit and instead maybe court a more fruitful relationship with soulful 2 step...to create a kind of UK equivalenet of the rap / r'n'b axis.
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
hamarplazt said:
Am I the only one thinking that the majority of truly-integrated-records within all kinds of rave derived music are EPs rather than albums proper?
No. The only truly integrated long players in dance music are DJ mixes.

I might make an exception for Dubnobasswithmyheadman, Orbital and the Orb, but not much else.
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
2stepfan said:
No. The only truly integrated long players in dance music are DJ mixes.

I might make an exception for Dubnobasswithmyheadman, Orbital and the Orb, but not much else.

Recorded DJ mixes have never really done that much for me, but obviously it's how most of the stuff is meant to be heard. Sometimes, though, some longplayers manages to get it right, and it is exceptions, but all the more a treat then. Don't know about Dubnobasswithmyheadman and Orbital and Orb - if their albums work as albums, it's probably because they're more or less moving away from dance music. But something like The Prodigys Experience and one of my all time favorites, Biochip Cs Biocalypse - totally integrated albums and still utter rave with no excuses or tacked on guests.

As for EPs, they have just the right length I think - long enough to be listened to as a kind of whole, presenting different aspects and ideas, but short enough be neither enervatingly uniform or, in the attempt to avoid that uniformity, put-on ecclectic.
 

matt ob

Member
bun-u said:
I minidisc'ed Roll deep on Rinse last night so that I could listen to on my cycle ride to New Cross today (dangerous listening to headphones on my bike I know, but it gets me through it). It starts off ok - I get the brilliant Trim on form, then cos I get the timing all wrong the show finishes and for the next 30 minutes I have to put up with a dubstep/sub-low show - playing the likes of Mark One, Plasticman etc, which I stick with, but only goes to reinforce my thinking that this stuff is terrible, devoid of anything. I simply can't place the sort of people who could be into it. The grime/eski entourage would do well to stay well clear of this shit and instead maybe court a more fruitful relationship with soulful 2 step...to create a kind of UK equivalenet of the rap / r'n'b axis.

Out of interest, what is it that you find so terrible about the dubstep sound? Personally, I didn't rate the Mark One album and have only heard a couple of decent tunes by Plasticman. Come to think of it, there is a lot of gash being released but that's the same with any genre isn't it?
 

bun-u

Trumpet Police
matt ob said:
Out of interest, what is it that you find so terrible about the dubstep sound? Personally, I didn't rate the Mark One album and have only heard a couple of decent tunes by Plasticman. Come to think of it, there is a lot of gash being released but that's the same with any genre isn't it?

I find the sound flat, like techstep but slower or crooklyn dub but poorly orchestrated, and - no energy, no unexpected sounds, boring. I guess I want to provoke someone into explaining its appeal
 

matt ob

Member
bun-u said:
I find the sound flat, like techstep but slower or crooklyn dub but poorly orchestrated, and - no energy, no unexpected sounds, boring. I guess I want to provoke someone into explaining its appeal

I agree that a lot of the output does have that dull-as-ditchwater sound that's reminiscent of tech step. However, there is some deeper stuff out there like Kode 9 / Artwork / Digital Mystikz, who I think are leading the way at the moment. Some of the stuff on Rag n Bone is also very good, coming from a more old school / electro background.
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Hiya all,

I received an e-mail from a guy recently named Matt recommending I checked out the site due to the interest in our music from the perspective of music lovers in general, rather than hardcore dyed-in-the-wool fans.

This is an interesting debate you have going, and something I could quite easily write a dissertation in haha Although I've just got back from Bashy@Fabric and certainly don't have the energy. I'm only online because I'm burning off 100 cds manually. :|

There's various angles you can approach the "What Is UKG?" question from. The first one is do you consider "Garage" and "UK Garage" to be the same genre. If you do then you would have to back track all the way back to Larry and Paradise Garage's music policy. If you don't then you only have to start from the origins of the scene in London.

I was of the opinion that when the name "Garage" was used for a tune, I forgot the letters "UK". I held this opinion for many years. It meant I could open myself to playing a set with the original ethos of Larry Levan's selection at the place where Garage was born. Play whatever the hell evokes a reaction for you as a dj or music listener. Where a gay black man can play Funk, Disco and Soft Rock to a multi-racial, multi-sexual crowd, then pretty much anything goes. This was my easy explaination for the confusing opposing styles of music that were coming out of the UK Garage scene from the start of the Speed Garage era in 1996. It was merely people drawing on whatever sounds they felt like and anything goes. From the heavily House influenced sounds of Todd Edwards and Grant Nelson, to the RnB 2 Step beat sped up to 130bpm, to the sub bass lines used experimentally by Tim Deluxe and Armand Van Helden in order to fuse House and Jungle into one music form. In the raves though, it was always the tunes with the biggest bass that got the reactions.

While "Dem 2's Step To Heaven" mix of Cloud 9 "Don't You Want Me?" or Tin Moore are often mentioned as the first ever 2 step tunes, it is interesting to note a tune called "endorphins" by Sky Cap which came out at the same sort of time. Instead of adopting a sped up RnB style, this early 2 step track uses some very harsh sounds and a thundering sub bass behind it. Very reminiscent of some of the current sounds used in "Grime" and Dubstep/Fwd.

Over the past few years of being well into the crew scene I have taken on an entirely new perspective. As a white kid living in Essex I spent my early and mid teens mainly listening to the recently deceased Kurt Cobain with fond memories, along with Faith No More, Pearl Jam, The Pixies, Soundgarden and Stone Temple Pilots. Most of the young black guys who are the driving force behind the new "grimey" sound spend their teens listening to their parents old soul and reggae collection, whilst raving to Jungle.

In around 1997 Jungle began to change into something different and for whatever reason, UK Garage with it's sub bass driven 2 step and 4/4 beats became the in sound. Back then the music was purely Dance orientated. Strict bpm ranges, thriving rave scene and strong underground sales as djing was the skill most young men wanted to master. Over the years as more and more inner city kids, who had grown up listening to Bounty Killer, Beenie Man, Super Cat and Capleton as well as Jay Z, Biggie, Tupac, Big Pun, DMX alongside Bassman, Eksman, Stevie Hyper D and Skibbadee, began to migrate over into the UK Garage scene so did the focus move away from djing, to the far cheaper hobby of mcing. Any mc who was big in Garage and is over the age of 20 was a drum and bass mc in their youth. You can name anyone. B Live, Wiley, Godsgift, Riko, Viper, Neat... the list goes on. And while originally the format was for simple hosting, some cheesey lines and a few tongue twisters... much like Jungle mcing, the slower tempo meant that more content could be fitted in. Much like how the under 20's mc's of today tend to move from Garage down the bpm ladder into hip hop tempo beats in order to make themselves "artists" as they feel the slower the tempo, the more pignant and meaningful their rhymes. The fact that Jay Z and Ludacris have been rapping on 130bpm beats for donkey's years not-withstanding.

Now the influence of the mc doesn't have any direct influence on the sound and the actual output of producers. But indirectly it did.

When So Solid formed as a crew from various components of Delight FM and Supreme FM, their level of mcing was far above that of the traditional host mcs, and they wanted to showcase this work they were evidently putting in. So slowly but surely, instead of vocal dub mixes with short vocal hooks in 8 bar bursts followed with breakdowns and drops of instrumental sections, fully instrumental bass driven beats became the standard for their sets. So Solid even began forming their own production camp to engineer beats exclusively for them to ride on dubplate and go on to release. The equipment available to them at the time pre-dates even the standard cracked fruity loops/VST Plug Ins/Cracked Soundforge combination favoured by every 16 year old bedroom garage producer nowadays. Music Generator on the Playstation was used to make Dilemma and Oh No so the legend goes. The Masterstepz track "Melody" was credited as the inspiration for Dilemma. Melody of course sampling the break from Busta Rhymes - Put Your Hands Where My Eyes Can See and coupled with a speaker destroying sub bass.

So there you had the start of the "grime" scene. Following So Solid, SPP and Ladies Hit Squad joined together (already childhood friends) to form Pay As You Go Cartel. Again they had their own production team, and a gentleman named Wiley produced a track called Know We in 2000. Taking the basic formula of So Solid and expanding on it further they also, like So Solid, ended up being signed, but they split up before an album could be released. Had that album came out and done well, tracks like Eskimo and Creeper might have never been made, as their album was very much song driven with a strong yet skippy 2 step sound to it. Again taking the old school garage sound and infusing it with even more hip hop, bashment and jungle sounds and styles, the music carried on evolving.

One of the most famous producers involved in bringing in the Bashment sound and vibe to the garage scene was Sticky. Working with vocalists producing songs over stripped down bass driven tracks with stiff minimal beats, his sound again took the music further down the path towards the sound we have today. The huge success of Booo, which could easily be passed off as a straight up UK Ragga record, saw a great number of immitations as well as bringing the bashment style that was infused into the subconscious of most of the mainly young black audience to the forefront of the UK Garage sound.

At the same time Wookie had been making huge tracks for a few years. While his tunes were always heavily bass driven and with mad beats, he managed to keep his production levels high and his tracks tremendously intricate. Whether they were vocals or instrumentals, they always got a good reaction. From Scrappy to Little Man remix tp Far East, Wookie was smashing the clubs and pirates. His tracks, along with Sticky's successfully gained huge exposure in the club scene, as well as in the burgeoning pirate radio crew scene.

Pirate Radio played a massive part in the transformation of this music from a straight up Dance music to a now uncategorizable genre. While tremendously popular with the small but growing crowd of MC fans, most crews had to rely on self promoted small scale events to get play outs. Large events were still focussed on the role of the Host mc with the limelight falling on the dj. Vocalists may well do a PA, but Artists as we know it were usually unseen on the live scene. When Craig David got to number 2 with Rewind and Neutrino got a number 1 with Bound For Da Reload, it opened the eyes of many people that they could take on a role above that of simply the mc who headlines raves. They could be album selling artists.

As soon as people like Craig David, So Solid, Pay As You Go and Lady Dynamite moved on into the world of mainstream major label album releases, the music changed forever. Not in any noticeable way, but just in the minds of the underground artists. The commercial house formula of superstar djs and producers making one off hits with vocalists who are often never heard of again had been in place in the garage scene for many years, but the successes of artists to have emerged from our scene opened people's eyes as to the potential and to their own importance.

The focus shifted away from the producer slightly and was fully onto the MC. It was this era which saw Wiley and Dizzee reach a level of popularity which had been unseen before on the underground scene. One should note that while both are fantastic live performers and recording artists, both too are ingenious producers. For some reason unknown to myself, we saw a total death in "vocal" songs, and a slew of fully MC based tracks coming out. Had artists like Wiley utilised singers alongside their own mic skills and productions at the time of eskimo and creeper I think this music would be at a level of mainstream international recognition by now.

However I've waffled long enough. I could talk about how producers like El B, Noodles, Jay Da Flex, Wookie and Zed Bias followed by Oris Jay and DnD took a simple sound and extrapolated it into an entire scene existing almost on it's own. But that probably deserves more space than a paragraph and someone more knowledgeable than myself to go through it's history.

And the sun's coming up and I have only managed to get 22 cds burnt as i keep forgetting to swap the burnt ones with the fresh blanks.

So I'll leave you with that. Let the debating continue!
 

Logan Sama

BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Oh yes...

Might I also point out that while Hip Hop is the music of the young urban population in America... the music of the young population in Jamaica is Reggae. A form of music which is very similar to hip hop, and retains many of the same fundamentals, but sounds and operates entirely differently.... ring any bells?
 

joe

New member
bun-u said:
I find the sound flat, like techstep but slower or crooklyn dub but poorly orchestrated, and - no energy, no unexpected sounds, boring. I guess I want to provoke someone into explaining its appeal
the fwd stuff is dj tools basicly - when cut up by a skilled dj it sounds sweet... my only experience of seeing the stuff played out was at the rephlex grime launch night, which was pretty much mark one & plasticman taking it in turns to dj all night. mark one was flat & boring, plasticman was exciting and edgy.

the best thing to compare it to would be minimal techno:

djed badly = tedium
djed well = excellent
 

bassnation

the abyss
'ardkore will never die!

not for those of us who still love it obsessively, as sad as it is, 12 years on.

besides everyone knows it lives on through numerous genres including grime, 2-step and even US rnb.
 

appleblim

Well-known member
wow, many things to say on this whole thing.....

been a regular at fwd>> for two years now, and checked out several grimey raves includin Fonti Dem Wanti at Ocean some time back, and have just put on a night of this sound in Bath, where Necta Selecta of the legendary Nopalumbo raves (where skream/geeneus/chef and other rinse nutters who played were seen jumping about behind the dex with gleeful grins at the mental response they were getting!) and DJ Blazey (who reps for Black Ops in the south west and whose tune 'exorcist' is getting battered by slimzee & others) played up a storm...

i think the main point is that there aren't such rigid distinctions between grime and fwd/dubstep sounds....these scenes cross over massively, including the breakstep thing....geeneus drops Vex'd and Zinc....Slimzee drops Horsepower.....Plastic drops everything from vocals to Oris, to Toasty Boy to well....pretty much anything good!

no doubt that Plastic is a very important ambassador, students have heard of him thru the rephlex thing, and the grime scene respect him massively.....i saw him in Bristol recently, at a rave called Subloaded, such a big jolt of electricity thru the crowd when he stepped up...after seeing him loads of times at Fwd it was wicked to see him get a proper rave reception......place went mental at every tune he dropped!

dunno if everyones caught onto his remix of "gype riddem" by IMP Batch, forthcoming on his own terrorrhythm label......wicked tune! u've probs heard it, lots of breathy flutes...really stands out in a set!

also, tune called "lift off" by macarbe unit....it isn't even grime/garage/dubstep...wtf is it?!! reminds me of some Octave One type Detroit shizzle........gonna be massive...

anyhoo big up woebot and luka for some of the best writing on the web, and big up all other dissensus members, hope i get to chat with u all proper some time

peace
 
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