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stelfox
17-11-2004, 12:29 PM
dj/rupture on the decks at 93 feet east and theo parrish at plastic people... short walk from each other... both will be fab... i can't make my mind up so will be checking one after the other.

nick.K
17-11-2004, 12:39 PM
never seen rupture live, surely this'd be an occassion. Er.. doesn't Theo Parrish play Plastic people every few months. Also... has any one checked Fabric's Mayer residency. Is it worth a look?

simon silverdollar
17-11-2004, 12:42 PM
yeah i think i'll try to make it to dj rupture...if i'm not in too bad a way after fabric on saturday...

xero
17-11-2004, 01:10 PM
definitely going to plastic people, would also love to hear mayer but just can't do fabric anymore - does anyone else feel this way? despite the at times brilliant programming & promotion, the club is just too big & too many dicks for my liking

stelfox
17-11-2004, 01:31 PM
rupture is worth checking out. theo plays at plastic people every so often but it's not a regular thing by any stretch. apparently moodyman played this night a few weeks ago and was stunning, too. i missed it and am forever pissed off, considering that i heard he was talking on the mic and taking requests from the crowd...

xero
17-11-2004, 01:40 PM
apparently moodyman played this night a few weeks ago and was stunning, too. i missed it and am forever pissed off, considering that i heard he was talking on the mic and taking requests from the crowd...

quite contrary to his moniker & rep then

baboon2004
17-11-2004, 02:48 PM
definitely going to plastic people, would also love to hear mayer but just can't do fabric anymore - does anyone else feel this way? despite the at times brilliant programming & promotion, the club is just too big & too many dicks for my liking

So glad someone else has noticed this. Fantastic programming most of the time, but the policy of letting in as many people as possible until dancing becomes impossible, and, as you say, the unnaturally high dick concentration which often approaches a penal critical mass, prevent me from enjoying it.

xero
17-11-2004, 03:02 PM
and almost everybody spends the whole night traipsing between one room and another in a perpetual state of dissatisfaction with where they've just been, the fatal consequence of having two main rooms

stelfox
17-11-2004, 03:34 PM
just follow my strategy. find what you want to listen to (it's not hard with akufen, villalobos and michael mayer all within one month of one another), find a spot on the floor and stay there. it's pretty easy.

for the record: most people would kill for a club like fabric in their town, bringing the sort of artists they do over to perform, including 95 per cent of san fransicans and new yorkers i know, so stop fucking moaning!

stelfox
17-11-2004, 03:36 PM
and i mean that with all due respect - i'll agree that the place is too big but i think we're all pretty lucky with the choices we have in london and people spend too much time trying to find something to *not enjoy* than they do throwing themselves into having fun and supporting good things.

stelfox
17-11-2004, 03:38 PM
and anyway this is my thread and it's about 93ft east and plastic people, so .... ;)

redcrescent
17-11-2004, 03:57 PM
most people would kill for a club like fabric in their town
Indeed.

baboon2004
17-11-2004, 04:18 PM
and almost everybody spends the whole night traipsing between one room and another in a perpetual state of dissatisfaction with where they've just been,

That made me laugh: sounds like a meditation upon life.

As for Fabric, I reserve the right to complain: been to a few places in both New York and Vienna and had a MUCH better time than I've ever had in Fabric, with better music to boot. So, all you New Yorkers and Viennese - count your blessings too ;) It's the atmosphere at Fabric that turns so many people off, anyway, and atmosphere counts for a lot.

Sorry Mr Stelfox, promise not to interrupt again. :o

stelfox
17-11-2004, 04:25 PM
i boycott going out in london ever again!

baboon2004
17-11-2004, 04:35 PM
and i mean that with all due respect - i'll agree that the place is too big but i think we're all pretty lucky with the choices we have in london and people spend too much time trying to find something to *not enjoy* than they do throwing themselves into having fun and supporting good things.

Damn your spectacularly un-English, reasonably-argued rebuke to grumbling discontent!

I love London, and most of the places I've been to are friendly enough. Fabric stands out as an exception in a great city to me.

Oops, I've done it again.

xero
17-11-2004, 04:55 PM
sorry it was my fault for meandering off topic, should have started an anti-fabric thread and waited for fellow miserable bitter sods to join me but just couldn't wait to get it off my chest. It's true that great artists come and play at fabric, they got that bit spot on - but that's exactly my point - a lot of these people only play at fabric (i'm thinking of mayer, villalobos and, er some others that don't come to mind) and nowhere else in London so if you don't like the place yer stuffed. Anyway, to return to the subject at hand, thank god for PP and their booking of top spinners that you can gop hear in a shoebox where noone has any choice but to stay in the same spot and get with it

stelfox
22-11-2004, 10:40 AM
time to revive this.... i decided not to bother with theo as i've seen him both here and in the states a few times lately, so went to see rupture, supersoul and ove-naxx at 93ft east.

ove-naxx was hilarious. really funny - looked like cousin it out of the addams family and made a tremendous racket, but with a real sense of humour. was lauging out loud throughout his set (and i normally find breakcore pretty dour and uninspiring). supersoul, a beta bodega-signed undie hip-hop outfit, were, perhaps unsurprisingly, absolutely shit. wack beats, crappy, stilted, up its arse rapping - a total waste of 40 minutes of my life. rupture was great, but it does make wonder that it takes a harvard-educated american, living in barcelona to make london's avant/experimetal audience really listen to proper east london grime (not of the rephlex, not very grimy at all variety) . i was well happy to hear him play the fwd rhythm, l-sov's "ch-ching" and a few other bits, but virtually no one there knew the records.... this makes me think a lot of people in this city are pretty lazy and shld listen to the radio more.

boomnoise
22-11-2004, 02:11 PM
was it really that bad dave? i would have thought that rupture's core audience are quite informed on this stuff and it's position in the ragga-dancehall-hiphop axis.

i couldn't make it despite living right around the corner. but i would have been bruppin' it up had i been there.

went to see him at the rfh for street music arabe, his djing there didn't get too grimey but i wasn't expecting it to. would have loved to have seen him at 93fE

so what was the crowd like - was it avant types? tigerbeat student types or what?? was it too much resonance without rinse perhaps?

stelfox
22-11-2004, 03:02 PM
no, it wasn't bad. the crowd was cool and i'm not being unpleasant about anyone there. i had a good time both musically and socially; nice atmosphere and i met several new people who i really enjoyed talking to.
what i'm getting at is that (and this is totally a personal perception, not by any means a concrete fact) among more avant-savvy circles, people tend to *like* dancehall/grime/etc quite a lot and are always interested when it gets played. the thing is that they don't necessarily make much of an effort to hear it on their own.... it's like it needs to be mediated and approved by a middleman like rupture or rephlex b4 it's really properly embraced... anyone know what i mean?
my theory is that this is because street musics like these are dangerously "pop" and thus something many people aren't quite comfortable with (as a side note, take for instance soca being recently "validated" by the damon albarn-funded comp on honest john's or what kevin martin does as the bug - to all intents and purposes making dancehall palatable to an avant/indie audience by a process of sonic *bleaching*... totally apt word that, what with the end result being chemical, brash, caustic and very, very pale). so i'm not dissing anything other than the fact that it's a bit daft!

bassnation
22-11-2004, 03:48 PM
So glad someone else has noticed this. Fantastic programming most of the time, but the policy of letting in as many people as possible until dancing becomes impossible, and, as you say, the unnaturally high dick concentration which often approaches a penal critical mass, prevent me from enjoying it.

fabric has long been known as the most rubbish overrated club in the capital. its essentially just a meat market with the flattest atmosphear i've ever had the misfortune to endure. i don't care whos playing, i'm not going there.

for me it sums up just how far rave culture has fallen from its original ideals that this shithole is lauded as the cream of the crop.

but apart from that, its great.

xero
22-11-2004, 03:49 PM
it's like it needs to be mediated and approved by a middleman like rupture or rephlex b4 it's really properly embraced... anyone know what i mean?

know exactly what you mean, it was going through my mind when I saw Richard D James & Russell Haswell Djing at Herbal a few months back - they were basically playing a mix of hip hop, dancehall, R&B , detroit techno & drum & bass but everything was played on laptops through msp patches making it sound fucked up enough to be palatable to the inevitably rephlex-obsessive crowd who I am sure would not normally spend a night listening to the same kind of tracks un-processed. The strange thing was whilst the original beats would have made people move, the aphexed versions were curiously static leaving most people just standing around watching the spectacularly unspectacular spectacle of two blokes fiddling with their laptops

I ended up at plastic people last night where I suppose parrish is doing the same sort of thing, making disco palatable to techno-bods by eqing it & cutting it up, but at least people were dancing to it

bassnation
22-11-2004, 04:14 PM
and i mean that with all due respect - i'll agree that the place is too big but i think we're all pretty lucky with the choices we have in london and people spend too much time trying to find something to *not enjoy* than they do throwing themselves into having fun and supporting good things.

i don't accept that in the case of fabric people are just trying to find something to moan about. if a club books good djs and has a responsible attitude to the amount of people they let in, i'll be the first to big it up. god knows there have been many great clubs, both in and out of london over the years, which i've supported.

but i can honestly say in the 15 or so years i've been clubbing, fabric has to be the worst experience. i can't believe the amount of shitty attitude i've experienced there and the wasted nights.

there are a lot of people who see fabric as one of the reasons why the whole (mainstream) dance thing went down the pan. and peoples experiences of the club which are almost uniformly crap, don't square with all the fawning media adulation heaped on it, which begs the overly cynical question of whom is getting paid and just how much.

in my opinion, just cos they've had a few grime nights, it doesn't absolve them from being shite.

redcrescent
22-11-2004, 06:23 PM
what kevin martin does as the bug - to all intents and purposes making dancehall palatable to an avant/indie audience by a process of sonic *bleaching*... totally apt word that, what with the end result being chemical, brash, caustic and very, very pale
I respect your opinion, but I find The Bug quite good at what he does, to be honest - maybe not everything on Pressure but there's some class remixes and 12"s, and he definitely has the stronger side on the split EP with DJ /rupture.
Funny his take on dancehall should be critisized for being "palatable to an avant/indie audience", when dancehall is booming and invading every other form of MTV pop at the moment. 'Course it's not "authentic", but maybe it will inspire someone who wouldn't normally do so to go check out Jah Shaka, buy a few 7" pre-releases, find out that "dancehall" is in fact more than Sean Paul and delve into the incredible richness of JA music. Nuttin' wrong with that!

mms
22-11-2004, 06:34 PM
no, it wasn't bad. the crowd was cool and i'm not being unpleasant about anyone there. i had a good time both musically and socially; nice atmosphere and i met several new people who i really enjoyed talking to.
what i'm getting at is that (and this is totally a personal perception, not by any means a concrete fact) among more avant-savvy circles, people tend to *like* dancehall/grime/etc quite a lot and are always interested when it gets played. the thing is that they don't necessarily make much of an effort to hear it on their own.... it's like it needs to be mediated and approved by a middleman like rupture or rephlex b4 it's really properly embraced... anyone know what i mean?
my theory is that this is because street musics like these are dangerously "pop" and thus something many people aren't quite comfortable with (as a side note, take for instance soca being recently "validated" by the damon albarn-funded comp on honest john's or what kevin martin does as the bug - to all intents and purposes making dancehall palatable to an avant/indie audience by a process of sonic *bleaching*... totally apt word that, what with the end result being chemical, brash, caustic and very, very pale). so i'm not dissing anything other than the fact that it's a bit daft!


i think people listen t dancehall at hip hop nights etc and i think that dancehall, the less hardcore end anyway is a part of r and b hip hop clubbing.
i don't think k martin etc bleach it, it's just not dancehall per'se i just think they are doing their own thing with the genre, the bug has infested dancehall.
i think people do buy grime and play it from those kinda areas, they might need some priming as the music is well underground but that's ok.
not everyone can be hip to every thing all the time like,

stelfox
22-11-2004, 07:01 PM
kevin martin seems like a very nice man and i don't want this to become in any way a personal thing, but for this listener his music sucks. it's not that the bug is inauthentic, it's that *everything* he does follows the same principles of stripping all the pleasure, joy, and fun out of music i happen to really like. it's as though he doesn't understand melody, clarity or anything high-end and doesn't grasp the tension these elements can add to dancehall (cf leny and vendetta for great examples of this). instead he just gives it loads of testosterone-fuelled welly, clunk and murk, which far from being innovative is just pretty retrograde and dull. people say he really loves dancehall, but to me his productions sound clanging and fuzzy, like he's been listening to it with his head in a breadbin.

mms
22-11-2004, 07:19 PM
know exactly what you mean, it was going through my mind when I saw Richard D James & Russell Haswell Djing at Herbal a few months back - they were basically playing a mix of hip hop, dancehall, R&B , detroit techno & drum & bass but everything was played on laptops through msp patches making it sound fucked up enough to be palatable to the inevitably rephlex-obsessive crowd who I am sure would not normally spend a night listening to the same kind of tracks un-processed. The strange thing was whilst the original beats would have made people move, the aphexed versions were curiously static leaving most people just standing around watching the spectacularly unspectacular spectacle of two blokes fiddling with their laptops

nah people who listen to aphex are well up on d and b and techno, hip hop for sure, dancehall too.
check out the planet mu board etc .
this technique is just what russell haswell does. he does it everytime he djs and it's really effective sometimes.
aphex usually plays that kinda music pretty straight. when he djs, but haswell is just mr noise.
his label or music has been doing interesting things with noise for years, way b4 mego etc .
he put out that gescom mini disc and that which is meant to be listened to at random. blah

people always watch afx when he's djing cos he's charasmatic .

redcrescent
22-11-2004, 07:46 PM
I love Lenky and Vendetta, too, but I guess you either buy into The Bug or you don't, with little middle ground. And yes, he takes what are essentially feel-good party/bashment vibes into rougher, darker, more claustrophobic regions, with results you can or cannot appreciate. If you value crisp production, handclaps and a riddim you can hum, you obviously won't.
I find it sits quite well alongside dubstep/grime on one hand, ragga jungle and mashed up breakcore of the Soundmurderer/Enduser/DJ Rupture variety on the other, but that's just me.
Testosterone-fuelled? Plenty of that in the dancehall!

stelfox
22-11-2004, 08:10 PM
well yeah but what i like about dancehall is the interplay between the sounds and the lyrics - the intricacy of the rhythm and the coarseness of the words etc... guess it is a case of liking the bug or not and it probably doesn't help that i hated techno animal, too.

redcrescent
22-11-2004, 08:55 PM
I dunno any of the Techno Animal stuff. Kevin Martin seems to be quite a busy guy, though:
From the IPECAC site...
"Kevin Martin then:
Formed & disbanded God (working with John Zorn, Bill Laswell, AMM), joined & left Sonic Boom's EAR project (alongside ex-members of Spacemen 3 & Kevin Shields), recorded & produced Ice (which featured El-P, Anti Pop Consortium, Blixa Bargeld & DJ Vadim), & founded the Pathological label (releasing albums by Lydia Lunch, Casper/Peter Brotzmann, Zeni Geva & Ox Bow).
Kevin Martin now:
Releasing a ragga/dub album as The Bug (via Kid 606’s Tigerbeat6 in the USA & for Aphex Twin's Rephlex label in the UK), recording new Techno Animal material, & remixed DJ Vadim, Palace Brothers (Will Oldham), Sensational & Adrian Sherwood."

I've yet to hear the IPECAC album by The Curse of the Golden Vampire, with Justin Broadrick, another industrial/noise musician turned hardcore ragga producer who has put out original material and remixes as Tech Level 2.

... but I realize most people won't give two figs about this.

xero
22-11-2004, 10:02 PM
nah people who listen to aphex are well up on d and b and techno, hip hop for sure, dancehall too.
check out the planet mu board etc .
this technique is just what russell haswell does. he does it everytime he djs and it's really effective sometimes.
aphex usually plays that kinda music pretty straight. when he djs, but haswell is just mr noise.
his label or music has been doing interesting things with noise for years, way b4 mego etc .
he put out that gescom mini disc and that which is meant to be listened to at random. blah

people always watch afx when he's djing cos he's charasmatic .

I just think some of the music James has produced, especially recently, is kind of parasitic on those genres whilst also attempting to take the piss out of them to a certain extent but without particularly adding anything interesting to them musically & this particular set epitomised that

stelfox
23-11-2004, 12:35 AM
I just think some of the music James has produced, especially recently, is kind of parasitic on those genres whilst also attempting to take the piss out of them to a certain extent but without particularly adding anything interesting to them musically & this particular set epitomised that

absolutely straight on the nose...

bassnation
23-11-2004, 09:24 AM
kevin martin seems like a very nice man and i don't want this to become in any way a personal thing, but for this listener his music sucks. it's not that the bug is inauthentic, it's that *everything* he does follows the same principles of stripping all the pleasure, joy, and fun out of music i happen to really like. it's as though he doesn't understand melody, clarity or anything high-end and doesn't grasp the tension these elements can add to dancehall (cf leny and vendetta for great examples of this). instead he just gives it loads of testosterone-fuelled welly, clunk and murk, which far from being innovative is just pretty retrograde and dull. people say he really loves dancehall, but to me his productions sound clanging and fuzzy, like he's been listening to it with his head in a breadbin.

interesting you should say that - when i first bought that bug lp, i loved it but curiously went off it very quickly indeed. i think you are bang on the money about the distortion and fuzz - although its kevin martin's trademark it doesn't make for good extended listening. even with people like daddy freddy on board it doesn't have the swing that "normal" dancehall has.

for what its worth, the only song i still listen to from the lp is the wayne lonesome tune "fuck y'self" for its sheer jungle-style nastiness. some of the techno animal stuff is quality too, but thats not really on a dancehall tip (although you can hear a lot of dub and reggae techniques going on even if its applied to slow-mo sheet metal tekno)

matt b
23-11-2004, 11:24 AM
having seen mr martin play live/ dj last christmas, i have to say he absolutely ruled- 'flat beat' w/ dancehall accapella's into his brutal own productions etc- it works!

i get the sense that there is a search for an authenticity here that may not exist- i'm sure the east-end grime mc's think that grime nights in croydon are 'mediated' etc. does it really matter? couldn't dj/rupture be liked because a) he's a wicked dj and b) he plays a lot of styles that people are already aware of/ike, but bangs them all together ?



ps 'people always watch afx when he's djing cos he's charasmatic' no he's not! he's 'FAMOUS' ;)

stelfox
23-11-2004, 12:21 PM
i love rupture - i think he's one of the most interesting djs going and when east london grime boys only hold their raves in romford and places like that nowdays, i think that's a tricky hypothesis.

redcrescent
23-11-2004, 06:28 PM
Incidentially, did anyone go to that Streetmusic Arabe thing at London's QEH recently? DJ /rupture/Nettle, Nass el Ghiwane, Clotaire K... I'd have liked to hear it (especially Nass e. G. and Rupture's DJ set).

@ matt b
The Bug is pretty awesome live (especially through a brutally good sound system like the one at Vienna's Flex club). Saw him with Tikiman/Paul St. Hilaire, so there was plenty of sweet crooning atop the sonic mayhem. And yes, dropping Mr. Oizo's "Flat Beat" early on in the set was certainly a moment to remember...

Oh, while on the topic of Vienna and dancehall-inspired electronica: Has anyone heard Stereotyp's My Sound album on G-Stone, Kruder & Dorfmeister's label? Some OK tracks on that (and Tikiman's on it, too!). Stereotyp has also been working with Al-Haca Soundsystem, with whom he's recently released Phase Three, with guest vocals from people like Lady Saw, Daddy Freddy... Here (http://www.play-fm.net/playfm_artists.php?p_id=96)'s a streamed studio mix so you can get an idea.
Warning: Dancehall purists abstain. You probably won't like this at all - but go ahead and prove me wrong!

mms
23-11-2004, 06:32 PM
I just think some of the music James has produced, especially recently, is kind of parasitic on those genres whilst also attempting to take the piss out of them to a certain extent but without particularly adding anything interesting to them musically & this particular set epitomised that

i don't see that at all sorry.

and the whole arguement of purisim of "i love the music i love and can't believe someone who claims they love it would do this with it"
thing is frankly a rubbish arguement , not appreciating that some artists by default nature react with a form of music rather than add or subtract something to it is a common dead end.

Kuma
23-11-2004, 06:45 PM
Oh, while on the topic of Vienna and dancehall-inspired electronica: Has anyone heard Stereotyp's My Sound album on G-Stone, Kruder & Dorfmeister's label? Some OK tracks on that (and Tikiman's on it, too!). Stereotyp has also been working with Al-Haca Soundsystem, with whom he's recently released Phase Three, with guest vocals from people like Lady Saw, Daddy Freddy... Here (http://www.play-fm.net/playfm_artists.php?p_id=96)'s a streamed studio mix so you can get an idea.
Warning: Dancehall purists abstain. You probably won't like this at all - but go ahead and prove me wrong!

Love it, Stereotyp can do no wrong for me as of late. Somne kinda half assed stuff on the album but when he's on, he's kills it.

Then again, I like to have my cake and eat it too, I love throwing on a a Lenky or Scatta production as much as I like one of the euro hybrids ala the Bug or Stereotyp. There's something to be said for traditionalism but at the same time, if you think it's runnin', it's runnin', no matter what.

redcrescent
23-11-2004, 07:34 PM
There's something to be said for traditionalism but at the same time, but at the same time, if you think it's runnin', it's runnin', no matter what.
Damn right. You might be surprised what people in the dancehall are up for!

mms
23-11-2004, 11:55 PM
Oh, while on the topic of Vienna and dancehall-inspired electronica: Has anyone heard Stereotyp's My Sound album on G-Stone, Kruder & Dorfmeister's label? Some OK tracks on that (and Tikiman's on it, too!). Stereotyp has also been working with Al-Haca Soundsystem, with whom he's recently released Phase Three, with guest vocals from people like Lady Saw, Daddy Freddy... Here (http://www.play-fm.net/playfm_artists.php?p_id=96)'s a streamed studio mix so you can get an idea.
Warning: Dancehall purists abstain. You probably won't like this at all - but go ahead and prove me wrong!



hmm cos dancehall's "pure " innit,... ha ha
:D

redcrescent
24-11-2004, 12:32 AM
hmm cos dancehall's "pure " innit,... ha ha
:D
'Course not! But there's people who don't like when it strays too far from the template or gets too harsh (i.e. The Bug). They're probably not going to like Stereotyp's stuff, but telling them you think they probably won't might just rile them enough to want to check it out, y'know what I mean?

bassnation
24-11-2004, 09:20 AM
'Course not! But there's people who don't like when it strays too far from the template or gets too harsh (i.e. The Bug). They're probably not going to like Stereotyp's stuff, but telling them you think they probably won't might just rile them enough to want to check it out, y'know what I mean?

stereotyp is wicked but hes not exactly on the same kind of groove as the bug is he?

and i'd argue that aphex's drill and bass is far more mocking of the source material than the bugs efforts. does anyone really really like that shit? give me straight up old skool jungle any day, far more innovative and not anywhere near as far up its own arse as afx shit.

matt b
24-11-2004, 10:10 AM
Stereotyp has also been working with Al-Haca Soundsystem

the 12"s are really good- much less 'noise' than the bug, they also sit really nicely with the 'collapse of the wave function' vol 2 7" on rephlex- (by ed dmx?), which is ragga on a 'ghostly' tip



i'd argue that aphex's drill and bass is far more mocking of the source material than the bugs efforts. does anyone really really like that shit? give me straight up old skool jungle any day, far more innovative and not anywhere near as far up its own arse as afx shit.


well, much of the point was the humour- esp. considering how far up their own arse the jungle cognescenti went after general levy got in the charts. i don't think drill'n'bass and jungle are that far apart musically, although culturally there is a yawning chasm:

compare:
1. bovinyl/spymania night at the spitz (1996?)- jungle/ drum'n'bass/ drill'n'bass. djs and crew giggling for most of the night, lee perry style cow noises slapped in the mix, radio transmissions. people dancing and smiling.
2. labyrinth (1996) jungle/ drum'n'bass. dark threatening atmosphere. very serious. people going madon the dancefloor. not much smiling.

bassnation
24-11-2004, 11:20 AM
well, much of the point was the humour- esp. considering how far up their own arse the jungle cognescenti went after general levy got in the charts. i don't think drill'n'bass and jungle are that far apart musically, although culturally there is a yawning chasm:.

i wasn't laughing much after shelling out for a vinyl copy of afx "druqs"! for the most part its unlistenable tosh. in fact if anyone wants to buy my mint copy, let me know.

the only reason why they aren't that far apart musically is because they ripped jungles ideas and exaggerated them in extremis. don't get me wrong, i don't think theres anything wrong with pilfering other peoples ideas and twisting them up, after all that was the whole basis of 'ardkore. its just if you are going to do it, at least make it danceable or interesting rather than a sterile pastiche for giggling idm boys.

but after saying all that, there is a fair bit of stuff from that genre which i like - squarepusher and some paradinas for instance.



compare:
1. bovinyl/spymania night at the spitz (1996?)- jungle/ drum'n'bass/ drill'n'bass. djs and crew giggling for most of the night, lee perry style cow noises slapped in the mix, radio transmissions. people dancing and smiling.
2. labyrinth (1996) jungle/ drum'n'bass. dark threatening atmosphere. very serious. people going madon the dancefloor. not much smiling.

fair enough. to be honest i was thinking pre-1996, one mans old skool is contemporary to another.

redcrescent
24-11-2004, 11:40 AM
stereotyp is wicked but hes not exactly on the same kind of groove as the bug is he?

You're right of course, but I still think Stereotyp's take on dancehall strays from the template in the sense that a lot of his things, particularly My Sound, seem cold, cerebral and spacy/dubbed out when compared to the exuberance, freshness/hotness, booty factor and occasionally claustrophobic productions of 'standard' dancehall.
And you're more likely his stuff in the electronica/downtempo/chillout bins, and not in the dancehall section of your record store (maybe the fact he's on the G-Stone label does him no favors here).

and i'd argue that aphex's drill and bass is far more mocking of the source material than the bugs efforts. does anyone really really like that shit? give me straight up old skool jungle any day, far more innovative and not anywhere near as far up its own arse as afx shit
Total agreement with the above.

@ matt b
I've seen the 'collapse...' 7" around in places, I'll make a point of checking it out when I find it again, thanks.

Woebot
24-11-2004, 11:44 AM
'Course not! But there's people who don't like when it strays too far from the template or gets too harsh (i.e. The Bug). They're probably not going to like Stereotyp's stuff, but telling them you think they probably won't might just rile them enough to want to check it out, y'know what I mean?
yeah it seems mms and you are saying the same thing. ive heard quite alot of french rapping recently in the context of electronica through records ive reviewed for the wire (radiq and i.wolf) and actually it works perfectly with the music, rubs the bohemian axis in precisely the right way, brilliant stufff. i wonder what else than dancehall uk-avant-producers might work with more profitably.

stelfox
24-11-2004, 12:26 PM
'Course not! But there's people who don't like when it strays too far from the template or gets too harsh (i.e. The Bug). They're probably not going to like Stereotyp's stuff, but telling them you think they probably won't might just rile them enough to want to check it out, y'know what I mean?

well, i'm guessing that the "purist" label has been slapped on me. however my feelings about the bug do not come from this perspective. purists want music to stay true too a perceived set of "roots"; want it to stay clean, unsullied by outside influence. this sits badly with most genres as anything that exists solely inside its own cultural bubble is rarely worth having, but there are certain styles of music where this approach is absolute anathema by their very nature - if you have any sense and a set of ears, that is. hip-hop is one, dancehall is another. both are so intertextual that their constant, eliptical referencing, versioning and reinterpreting of the most unlikely sources is an integral part of their being, and their appeal. so, purist, me? no diggity. my critical perspective on k-mart is based solely on what *works* and what doesn't. placing the bug in an industrial/avant context makes sense, because i hear *infinitely* more of this in the music than i do dancehall. techno and reggae are just filters he uses, industrial is always the aesthetic lens. however, i think comparing him to squarepusher and aphex - who are fundamentally the snidey rich kids that many of us probably knew at school (nothing better than taking the piss out off the proles to affirm your own sense of entitlement, is there boys?) - is disingenuous. i firmly believe that he loves dancehall and thinks he's doing something special - he just isn't. also, not liking this one particular artist (for good and clearly stated reasons) does not mean that i know nothing about anything other than 100 per cent jamaican-voiced and produced reggae. accordingly, i am very familiar with stereotyp. in actual fact i think i did his first ever published interview several years back.

redcrescent
24-11-2004, 12:26 PM
@ bassnation
"giggling idm boys"... Kid 606?
Dunno about Squarepusher (Hard Normal Daddy is awesome still!), personally I prefer things more on the Bong-Ra/Enduser/Soundmurderer end of the spectrum...
[Check Bong-Ra's site (http://www.jungle.demon.nl/main.htm) for some wicked ragga jungle mixes ["Yardcore?"] and Enduser's (http://www.sonicterror.net/enduser/site/enduser.html) for a brutal Dizzee bootleg and 'Gunshot Anthem' mp3s.]


records ive reviewed for the wire (radiq and i.wolf)
I found this very good: "The record's outernational bent [...] paints a convincing picture of a gang of nomadic misfits adrift from instituted culture and its paucity of relevance to their intense demands, a culture thay believe is at once not sufficiently cerebral and neither funky enough. These mentalist hedonists have gone global, whooping it up under the flyover somewhere nowhere."
I'm sure you know that I-Wolf = Markus Kienzl of Vienna group Sofa Surfers, who've also released stuff on Klein (e.g. [I]Transit, Cargo, with the Singing Bird-voiced "Beans and Rice" which Stereo MC's included on their K!7 DJ-Kicks mix, Encounters, with vocal contributions by Junior Delgado, Dälek, Mark Stewart...)

xero
24-11-2004, 12:41 PM
the only reason why they aren't that far apart musically is because they ripped jungles ideas and exaggerated them in extremis. don't get me wrong, i don't think theres anything wrong with pilfering other peoples ideas and twisting them up, after all that was the whole basis of 'ardkore. its just if you are going to do it, at least make it danceable or interesting rather than a sterile pastiche for giggling idm boys.


yep this is the point isn't it - I've got no interest in the 'purity' of genres, it just irks when, as bassnation says, ideas - some of which are genuinely innovative but dismissed initially as dumb club fodder - are twisted around and then passed off as avant-guarde activity that simultaneously mocks the culture in which the source material was produced (I'm thinking of the windowlicker video here) I've probably over-egged this particular pudding and am taking it far too seriously but it seems that these days the whiff of 'high' culture and notionally 'experimental' tactics have become very marketable - afx & bjork are two of the most obviously successful in these terms.

All this debate from such a seemingly innocent question - maybe we should get out on Sundays more often :)

redcrescent
24-11-2004, 12:45 PM
well, i'm guessing that the "purist" label has been slapped on me.
My apologies if you took that personally, which is really not what I intended with my friendly baiting of 'purists'. As you rightly observe, dancehall's "constant, eliptical referencing, versioning and reinterpreting of the most unlikely sources" is an integral part of the music and therefore incompatible with a 'purist' stance (whatever that is) of any sort (hiphop, dancehall... Brazilian Tropicalismo and to some extent soca/calypso, too, probably couldn't survive without those sources.)
And by sheer incompetence I am no one to be slapping labels on anything or anybody.

accordingly, i am extremely familiar with stereotyp. in actual fact i think i did his first ever published interview several years back
Nice one!

Woebot
24-11-2004, 12:46 PM
I found this very good: "The [I-Wolf] record's outernational bent [...] paints a convincing picture of a gang of nomadic misfits adrift from instituted culture and its paucity of relevance to their intense demands, a culture thay believe is at once not sufficiently cerebral and neither funky enough. These mentalist hedonists have gone global, whooping it up under the flyover somewhere nowhere."
http://www.dissensus.com/images/smilies/redface.gif thanks redcrescent. though any more flattery and you're banned http://www.dissensus.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

one thing though, in the review i said "These mentalist hedonists have gone glocal" and they "corrected" it to "global" whih is a bit naff http://www.dissensus.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif oh well. its a good record.

redcrescent
24-11-2004, 12:56 PM
re.: glocal/global
Maybe they'll let you do a "Shanty House" Primer in, oh, 2025 or thereabouts.

bassnation
24-11-2004, 12:57 PM
yep this is the point isn't it - I've got no interest in the 'purity' of genres, it just irks when, as bassnation says, ideas - some of which are genuinely innovative but dismissed initially as dumb club fodder - are twisted around and then passed off as avant-guarde activity that simultaneously mocks the culture in which the source material was produced (I'm thinking of the windowlicker video here) I've probably over-egged this particular pudding and am taking it far too seriously but it seems that these days the whiff of 'high' culture and notionally 'experimental' tactics have become very marketable - afx & bjork are two of the most obviously successful in these terms.

the funny thing is, i don't doubt that afx et al are massive jungle fans. theres a guy on ukdance who regularly sells large amounts of old skool hardcore vinyl to luke vibert (and then following that, we get a new but very retro sounding wagon christ tune!)

its more that what they've produced kind of misses the point, to ears acclimatised to jungle "proper". that and the snobby reaction of idm fans to any criticism of drill n bass.

matt b
24-11-2004, 01:53 PM
its more that what they've produced kind of misses the point, to ears acclimatised to jungle "proper". that and the snobby reaction of idm fans to any criticism of drill n bass.

remember, drill'n'bass was being produced at around the same time as 'classic' 'old-skool' jungle- i don't think its quite as simple as theft- squarepusher/ plug were releasing stuff in 1995 and i think there was probably some cross-fertilisation (esp. drum programming) going on- quite a lot of jungle proper could easily get confused for drill'n'bass.

marc- you sounding the more snobby, mate esp now that you're arguing that 1996 (the year of 'super sharp shooter') is contemporary ;)
i'll certainly admit much drill'n'bass is arse: spunk jazz, anyone?

bassnation
24-11-2004, 02:26 PM
marc- you sounding the more snobby, mate esp now that you're arguing that 1996 (the year of 'super sharp shooter') is contemporary ;)

ha ha! we do like to argue, don't we matt? if not on ukd then here. ;)

ok, so 1996 isn't contemporary, it just feels that way sometimes! once you go over 35 all the years just blend into one, don't they? (mutters under breath about policemen getting younger every year etc)

i have to say though, 1996 is definitely not my favourite year for jungle (although super sharp shooter is a wicked track). its got to be 1993 or 1994 imo.

bassnation
24-11-2004, 02:32 PM
there was probably some cross-fertilisation (esp. drum programming) going on- quite a lot of jungle proper could easily get confused for drill'n'bass.

hang on, got to pull you up on this.

the kind of brain-melting rhythmic contortions that everyone identifies with jungle originated with jungle. the fertilisation was one way. i challenge you to name some jungle tracks that have been clearly influenced by drill and bass. if you can do that, i will freely and publicly admit that i am wrong about all the things we have ever argued about, thats how confident i am of this position! ;)

matt b
24-11-2004, 03:08 PM
i challenge you to name some jungle tracks that have been clearly influenced by drill and bass. if you can do that, i will freely and publicly admit that i am wrong about all the things we have ever argued about, thats how confident i am of this position! ;)


argue marc? i like to think of it as rational debate...


right, (rubs hands) i'm off home in a bit and will check, but off the top of my head, some of the later kemet and remarc stuff (esp. on the ['idm' label] planet mu comp 'unreleased dubs') has the extreme pitched up/down rolling snares that plug/squarepusher did first. however i don't think anyone but the producers involved really know.

i would agree with you (in general) about jungle/ drill'n'bass though- the jungle classics have stood the test of time, whereas most squarepusher (to grab a name) stuff hasn't- the importance placed on the technology has left it outmoded as processing power/music editing programs have got more powerful.

matt b
24-11-2004, 03:11 PM
btw- 1995 was the best year for jungle ;)

xero
24-11-2004, 04:51 PM
squarepusher's an interesting artist in the context of this discussion tho, not only because of the drill & bass thing but for the jazz funk angle - I mean straight up jazz funk would get laughed at by the crowd at, for instance, a warp night or some such, but it's perfectly acceptable for jenkinson to slap away at his bass like Mark King as long as there's some crunchy beats going on in the background

bassnation
24-11-2004, 05:01 PM
squarepusher's an interesting artist in the context of this discussion tho, not only because of the drill & bass thing but for the jazz funk angle - I mean straight up jazz funk would get laughed at by the crowd at, for instance, a warp night or some such, but it's perfectly acceptable for jenkinson to slap away at his bass like Mark King as long as there's some crunchy beats going on in the background

slap bass makes me feel queasy, i honestly think its a level 42 thing.

i used to play bass in a punk rock band called "fuck the cross" in the eighties and i had a mate who was obsessed with mark king (and later, funk-metal like red hot chilli peppers, living colour, etc).

he tried to teach me how to do the slap bass thing, instead of my normal 3 chord bollocks. it made my fingers hurt and sounded shit. we used to have arguments where he would maintain that the more complicated and technically accomplished the music was, the better it would be. of course, some of the most simple music in the world can be devastatingly powerful. the technical workmanlike virtuosity side of things is utterly irrelevant.

xero
24-11-2004, 05:33 PM
of course, some of the most simple music in the world can be devastatingly powerful. the technical workmanlike virtuosity side of things is utterly irrelevant.

yep but unfortunately a lot of people will not accept that the fact that this is true does not preclude music that is technically complex or demanding from being powerful also - the tired old punk rhetoric still gets trotted out although it's being given short shrift over in the prog thread.

mms
24-11-2004, 06:06 PM
well, i'm guessing that the "purist" label has been slapped on me. however my feelings about the bug do not come from this perspective. purists want music to stay true too a perceived set of "roots"; want it to stay clean, unsullied by outside influence. this sits badly with most genres as anything that exists solely inside its own cultural bubble is rarely worth having, but there are certain styles of music where this approach is absolute anathema by their very nature - if you have any sense and a set of ears, that is. hip-hop is one, dancehall is another. both are so intertextual that their constant, eliptical referencing, versioning and reinterpreting of the most unlikely sources is an integral part of their being, and their appeal. so, purist, me? no diggity. my critical perspective on k-mart is based solely on what *works* and what doesn't. placing the bug in an industrial/avant context makes sense, because i hear *infinitely* more of this in the music than i do dancehall. techno and reggae are just filters he uses, industrial is always the aesthetic lens. however, i think comparing him to squarepusher and aphex - who are fundamentally the snidey rich kids that many of us probably knew at school (nothing better than taking the piss out off the proles to affirm your own sense of entitlement, is there boys?) - is disingenuous. i firmly believe that he loves dancehall and thinks he's doing something special - he just isn't. also, not liking this one particular artist (for good and clearly stated reasons) does not mean that i know nothing about anything other than 100 per cent jamaican-voiced and produced reggae. accordingly, i am very familiar with stereotyp. in actual fact i think i did his first ever published interview several years back.



nah afx is the son of a miner and a nurse.
he went to a comp in a shit poor area of cornwall as it goes

stelfox
24-11-2004, 07:02 PM
he's rich now and is shite.

bassnation
24-11-2004, 07:17 PM
yep but unfortunately a lot of people will not accept that the fact that this is true does not preclude music that is technically complex or demanding from being powerful also - the tired old punk rhetoric still gets trotted out although it's being given short shrift over in the prog thread.

no problem with that, love a lot of prog myself (the consequence of being brought up by hippy parents in the 70's)

but to be honest i've always tilted towards the amateur side of things. kids doing tunes in their bedrooms, knowing jack shit about the "proper" way to make music but really feeling it, bucketloads of passion. give me that over some blanded out authentic jazzwank any day.

mms
25-11-2004, 09:54 PM
he's rich now and is shite.


erm righto. its always a bit shady when people bring up the fact he's had alot of success.
Drukqs was far too long but it's got moments of greatness, some of his best, i understand that its possible to compare some of those tracks on the album to jungle at a massive stretch and maybe get a bit pissed of about it , but it's not some definitley comedy shit like shitmat at all, some have breaks of a kind and they are fast like jungle but the whole sound is filled with little pointilist dots and details and the album is highly emotional, not in a rushy way, some of its probably the deepest stuff he's done, production and melody wise. Anyway that stuff is only a small part of that particular record.
i don't think he's doing any of that stuff anymore as it goes so y'all can cut the liberal guilt autheticity biznizz unless you want to get upset about chicago acid and autheticity as well or something ;)

bassnation
25-11-2004, 10:03 PM
erm righto. its always a bit shady when people bring up the fact he's had alot of success.
Drukqs was far too long but it's got moments of greatness, some of his best, i understand that its possible to compare some of those tracks on the album to jungle at a massive stretch and maybe get a bit pissed of about it , but it's not some definitley comedy shit like shitmat at all, some have breaks of a kind and they are fast like jungle but the whole sound is filled with little pointilist dots and details and the album is highly emotional, not in a rushy way, some of its probably the deepest stuff he's done, production and melody wise. Anyway that stuff is only a small part of that particular record.

maybe its going over my head then, cos druqs is among the most clinical, emotionless music i've ever heard. i wouldn't say that about his earlier tracks mind.

in fact i was listening to digeridoo on the tube the other day, having one of those flashback rushes where you can feel your hair stand on end, even if its years since doing any ecstasy.

stelfox
26-11-2004, 10:50 AM
so y'all can cut the liberal guilt autheticity biznizz unless you want to get upset about chicago acid and autheticity as well or something ;)

why is it a sign of weakness "liberal guilt etc" to dislike music that's not very good and like music that's better.

mms
26-11-2004, 06:13 PM
why is it a sign of weakness "liberal guilt etc" to dislike music that's not very good and like music that's better.

you've heard em then?
yawnsville .