who's going out on sunday?

[bassnation]

'Course not! But there's people who don't like when it strays too far from the template or gets too harsh (i.e. The Bug). They're probably not going to like Stereotyp's stuff, but telling them you think they probably won't might just rile them enough to want to check it out, y'know what I mean?

stereotyp is wicked but hes not exactly on the same kind of groove as the bug is he?

and i'd argue that aphex's drill and bass is far more mocking of the source material than the bugs efforts. does anyone really really like that shit? give me straight up old skool jungle any day, far more innovative and not anywhere near as far up its own arse as afx shit.

 

[matt b]

Stereotyp has also been working with Al-Haca Soundsystem

the 12"s are really good- much less 'noise' than the bug, they also sit really nicely with the 'collapse of the wave function' vol 2 7" on rephlex- (by ed dmx?), which is ragga on a 'ghostly' tip

i'd argue that aphex's drill and bass is far more mocking of the source material than the bugs efforts. does anyone really really like that shit? give me straight up old skool jungle any day, far more innovative and not anywhere near as far up its own arse as afx shit.

well, much of the point was the humour- esp. considering how far up their own arse the jungle cognescenti went after general levy got in the charts. i don't think drill'n'bass and jungle are that far apart musically, although culturally there is a yawning chasm:

compare:
1. bovinyl/spymania night at the spitz (1996?)- jungle/ drum'n'bass/ drill'n'bass. djs and crew giggling for most of the night, lee perry style cow noises slapped in the mix, radio transmissions. people dancing and smiling.
2. labyrinth (1996) jungle/ drum'n'bass. dark threatening atmosphere. very serious. people going madon the dancefloor. not much smiling.

 

[bassnation]

well, much of the point was the humour- esp. considering how far up their own arse the jungle cognescenti went after general levy got in the charts. i don't think drill'n'bass and jungle are that far apart musically, although culturally there is a yawning chasm:.

i wasn't laughing much after shelling out for a vinyl copy of afx "druqs"! for the most part its unlistenable tosh. in fact if anyone wants to buy my mint copy, let me know.

the only reason why they aren't that far apart musically is because they ripped jungles ideas and exaggerated them in extremis. don't get me wrong, i don't think theres anything wrong with pilfering other peoples ideas and twisting them up, after all that was the whole basis of 'ardkore. its just if you are going to do it, at least make it danceable or interesting rather than a sterile pastiche for giggling idm boys.

but after saying all that, there is a fair bit of stuff from that genre which i like - squarepusher and some paradinas for instance.

compare:
1. bovinyl/spymania night at the spitz (1996?)- jungle/ drum'n'bass/ drill'n'bass. djs and crew giggling for most of the night, lee perry style cow noises slapped in the mix, radio transmissions. people dancing and smiling.
2. labyrinth (1996) jungle/ drum'n'bass. dark threatening atmosphere. very serious. people going madon the dancefloor. not much smiling.

fair enough. to be honest i was thinking pre-1996, one mans old skool is contemporary to another.

 

[redcrescent]

stereotyp is wicked but hes not exactly on the same kind of groove as the bug is he?

You're right of course, but I still think Stereotyp's take on dancehall strays from the template in the sense that a lot of his things, particularly My Sound, seem cold, cerebral and spacy/dubbed out when compared to the exuberance, freshness/hotness, booty factor and occasionally claustrophobic productions of 'standard' dancehall.
And you're more likely his stuff in the electronica/downtempo/chillout bins, and not in the dancehall section of your record store (maybe the fact he's on the G-Stone label does him no favors here).

and i'd argue that aphex's drill and bass is far more mocking of the source material than the bugs efforts. does anyone really really like that shit? give me straight up old skool jungle any day, far more innovative and not anywhere near as far up its own arse as afx shit

Total agreement with the above.

@ matt b
I've seen the 'collapse...' 7" around in places, I'll make a point of checking it out when I find it again, thanks.

 

[Woebot]

'Course not! But there's people who don't like when it strays too far from the template or gets too harsh (i.e. The Bug). They're probably not going to like Stereotyp's stuff, but telling them you think they probably won't might just rile them enough to want to check it out, y'know what I mean?

yeah it seems mms and you are saying the same thing. ive heard quite alot of french rapping recently in the context of electronica through records ive reviewed for the wire (radiq and i.wolf) and actually it works perfectly with the music, rubs the bohemian axis in precisely the right way, brilliant stufff. i wonder what else than dancehall uk-avant-producers might work with more profitably.

 

[stelfox]

'Course not! But there's people who don't like when it strays too far from the template or gets too harsh (i.e. The Bug). They're probably not going to like Stereotyp's stuff, but telling them you think they probably won't might just rile them enough to want to check it out, y'know what I mean?

well, i'm guessing that the "purist" label has been slapped on me. however my feelings about the bug do not come from this perspective. purists want music to stay true too a perceived set of "roots"; want it to stay clean, unsullied by outside influence. this sits badly with most genres as anything that exists solely inside its own cultural bubble is rarely worth having, but there are certain styles of music where this approach is absolute anathema by their very nature - if you have any sense and a set of ears, that is. hip-hop is one, dancehall is another. both are so intertextual that their constant, eliptical referencing, versioning and reinterpreting of the most unlikely sources is an integral part of their being, and their appeal. so, purist, me? no diggity. my critical perspective on k-mart is based solely on what *works* and what doesn't. placing the bug in an industrial/avant context makes sense, because i hear *infinitely* more of this in the music than i do dancehall. techno and reggae are just filters he uses, industrial is always the aesthetic lens. however, i think comparing him to squarepusher and aphex - who are fundamentally the snidey rich kids that many of us probably knew at school (nothing better than taking the piss out off the proles to affirm your own sense of entitlement, is there boys?) - is disingenuous. i firmly believe that he loves dancehall and thinks he's doing something special - he just isn't. also, not liking this one particular artist (for good and clearly stated reasons) does not mean that i know nothing about anything other than 100 per cent jamaican-voiced and produced reggae. accordingly, i am very familiar with stereotyp. in actual fact i think i did his first ever published interview several years back.

 

[redcrescent]

@ bassnation
"giggling idm boys"... Kid 606?
Dunno about Squarepusher (Hard Normal Daddy is awesome still!), personally I prefer things more on the Bong-Ra/Enduser/Soundmurderer end of the spectrum...
[Check Bong-Ra's site for some wicked ragga jungle mixes ["Yardcore?"] and Enduser's for a brutal Dizzee bootleg and 'Gunshot Anthem' mp3s.]

records ive reviewed for the wire (radiq and i.wolf)

I found this very good: "The [I-Wolf] record's outernational bent [...] paints a convincing picture of a gang of nomadic misfits adrift from instituted culture and its paucity of relevance to their intense demands, a culture thay believe is at once not sufficiently cerebral and neither funky enough. These mentalist hedonists have gone global, whooping it up under the flyover somewhere nowhere."
I'm sure you know that I-Wolf = Markus Kienzl of Vienna group Sofa Surfers, who've also released stuff on Klein (e.g. Transit, Cargo, with the Singing Bird-voiced "Beans and Rice" which Stereo MC's included on their K!7 DJ-Kicks mix, Encounters, with vocal contributions by Junior Delgado, Dälek, Mark Stewart...)

 

[xero]

the only reason why they aren't that far apart musically is because they ripped jungles ideas and exaggerated them in extremis. don't get me wrong, i don't think theres anything wrong with pilfering other peoples ideas and twisting them up, after all that was the whole basis of 'ardkore. its just if you are going to do it, at least make it danceable or interesting rather than a sterile pastiche for giggling idm boys.

yep this is the point isn't it - I've got no interest in the 'purity' of genres, it just irks when, as bassnation says, ideas - some of which are genuinely innovative but dismissed initially as dumb club fodder - are twisted around and then passed off as avant-guarde activity that simultaneously mocks the culture in which the source material was produced (I'm thinking of the windowlicker video here) I've probably over-egged this particular pudding and am taking it far too seriously but it seems that these days the whiff of 'high' culture and notionally 'experimental' tactics have become very marketable - afx & bjork are two of the most obviously successful in these terms.

All this debate from such a seemingly innocent question - maybe we should get out on Sundays more often

 

[redcrescent]

well, i'm guessing that the "purist" label has been slapped on me.

My apologies if you took that personally, which is really not what I intended with my friendly baiting of 'purists'. As you rightly observe, dancehall's "constant, eliptical referencing, versioning and reinterpreting of the most unlikely sources" is an integral part of the music and therefore incompatible with a 'purist' stance (whatever that is) of any sort (hiphop, dancehall... Brazilian Tropicalismo and to some extent soca/calypso, too, probably couldn't survive without those sources.)
And by sheer incompetence I am no one to be slapping labels on anything or anybody.

accordingly, i am extremely familiar with stereotyp. in actual fact i think i did his first ever published interview several years back

Nice one!

 

[Woebot]

I found this very good: "The [I-Wolf] record's outernational bent [...] paints a convincing picture of a gang of nomadic misfits adrift from instituted culture and its paucity of relevance to their intense demands, a culture thay believe is at once not sufficiently cerebral and neither funky enough. These mentalist hedonists have gone global, whooping it up under the flyover somewhere nowhere."

thanks redcrescent. though any more flattery and you're banned

one thing though, in the review i said "These mentalist hedonists have gone glocal" and they "corrected" it to "global" whih is a bit naff

oh well. its a good record.

 

[redcrescent]

re.: glocal/global
Maybe they'll let you do a "Shanty House" Primer in, oh, 2025 or thereabouts.

 

[bassnation]

yep this is the point isn't it - I've got no interest in the 'purity' of genres, it just irks when, as bassnation says, ideas - some of which are genuinely innovative but dismissed initially as dumb club fodder - are twisted around and then passed off as avant-guarde activity that simultaneously mocks the culture in which the source material was produced (I'm thinking of the windowlicker video here) I've probably over-egged this particular pudding and am taking it far too seriously but it seems that these days the whiff of 'high' culture and notionally 'experimental' tactics have become very marketable - afx & bjork are two of the most obviously successful in these terms.

the funny thing is, i don't doubt that afx et al are massive jungle fans. theres a guy on ukdance who regularly sells large amounts of old skool hardcore vinyl to luke vibert (and then following that, we get a new but very retro sounding wagon christ tune!)

its more that what they've produced kind of misses the point, to ears acclimatised to jungle "proper". that and the snobby reaction of idm fans to any criticism of drill n bass.

 

[matt b]

its more that what they've produced kind of misses the point, to ears acclimatised to jungle "proper". that and the snobby reaction of idm fans to any criticism of drill n bass.

remember, drill'n'bass was being produced at around the same time as 'classic' 'old-skool' jungle- i don't think its quite as simple as theft- squarepusher/ plug were releasing stuff in 1995 and i think there was probably some cross-fertilisation (esp. drum programming) going on- quite a lot of jungle proper could easily get confused for drill'n'bass.

marc- you sounding the more snobby, mate esp now that you're arguing that 1996 (the year of 'super sharp shooter') is contemporary
i'll certainly admit much drill'n'bass is arse: spunk jazz, anyone?

 

[bassnation]

marc- you sounding the more snobby, mate esp now that you're arguing that 1996 (the year of 'super sharp shooter') is contemporary

ha ha! we do like to argue, don't we matt? if not on ukd then here.

ok, so 1996 isn't contemporary, it just feels that way sometimes! once you go over 35 all the years just blend into one, don't they? (mutters under breath about policemen getting younger every year etc)

i have to say though, 1996 is definitely not my favourite year for jungle (although super sharp shooter is a wicked track). its got to be 1993 or 1994 imo.

 

[bassnation]

there was probably some cross-fertilisation (esp. drum programming) going on- quite a lot of jungle proper could easily get confused for drill'n'bass.

hang on, got to pull you up on this.

the kind of brain-melting rhythmic contortions that everyone identifies with jungle originated with jungle. the fertilisation was one way. i challenge you to name some jungle tracks that have been clearly influenced by drill and bass. if you can do that, i will freely and publicly admit that i am wrong about all the things we have ever argued about, thats how confident i am of this position!

 

[matt b]

i challenge you to name some jungle tracks that have been clearly influenced by drill and bass. if you can do that, i will freely and publicly admit that i am wrong about all the things we have ever argued about, thats how confident i am of this position!

argue marc? i like to think of it as rational debate...


right, (rubs hands) i'm off home in a bit and will check, but off the top of my head, some of the later kemet and remarc stuff (esp. on the ['idm' label] planet mu comp 'unreleased dubs') has the extreme pitched up/down rolling snares that plug/squarepusher did first. however i don't think anyone but the producers involved really know.

i would agree with you (in general) about jungle/ drill'n'bass though- the jungle classics have stood the test of time, whereas most squarepusher (to grab a name) stuff hasn't- the importance placed on the technology has left it outmoded as processing power/music editing programs have got more powerful.

 

[matt b]

btw- 1995 was the best year for jungle

 

[xero]

squarepusher's an interesting artist in the context of this discussion tho, not only because of the drill & bass thing but for the jazz funk angle - I mean straight up jazz funk would get laughed at by the crowd at, for instance, a warp night or some such, but it's perfectly acceptable for jenkinson to slap away at his bass like Mark King as long as there's some crunchy beats going on in the background

 

[bassnation]

squarepusher's an interesting artist in the context of this discussion tho, not only because of the drill & bass thing but for the jazz funk angle - I mean straight up jazz funk would get laughed at by the crowd at, for instance, a warp night or some such, but it's perfectly acceptable for jenkinson to slap away at his bass like Mark King as long as there's some crunchy beats going on in the background

slap bass makes me feel queasy, i honestly think its a level 42 thing.

i used to play bass in a punk rock band called "fuck the cross" in the eighties and i had a mate who was obsessed with mark king (and later, funk-metal like red hot chilli peppers, living colour, etc).

he tried to teach me how to do the slap bass thing, instead of my normal 3 chord bollocks. it made my fingers hurt and sounded shit. we used to have arguments where he would maintain that the more complicated and technically accomplished the music was, the better it would be. of course, some of the most simple music in the world can be devastatingly powerful. the technical workmanlike virtuosity side of things is utterly irrelevant.

 

[xero]

of course, some of the most simple music in the world can be devastatingly powerful. the technical workmanlike virtuosity side of things is utterly irrelevant.

yep but unfortunately a lot of people will not accept that the fact that this is true does not preclude music that is technically complex or demanding from being powerful also - the tired old punk rhetoric still gets trotted out although it's being given short shrift over in the prog thread.