Dubstep

[Sick Boy]

n type's was terrible though!

D1 on the show he did the other week made a sly remark about N Type. He was telling everyone to go down to FWD that weekend and said N-Type was there and would be "lucky if he gets through 5 tunes! W-ayyyyyy!"

Although clearly a friendly diss, it made me happy to see that his mindless reloading is acknowledged and he gets the piss taken because of it. Nothing like a bit of self-regulation to clean things up.

 

[UFO over easy]

reclamation or not....why should it be all about context? it's worth bringing to the table at least- it's his personal perspective.

it's bollocks though

it'd be a fair comparison if someone was objecting to gays calling each other Queer, but bringing up the Enne Word, which has had positive connotations and uses within the black community for decades, in order to defend straight bigots calling calling out people as faggots and battyboys is pretty dumb.

 

[fokse vektaire xeven]

i don't concur myself and i'm not speaking for tactics, but i don't think he was defending anything, just questioning why some things should be taboo and others not. whether you think it's bollocks or not, it's at least provocative. many if not most listeners of grime, gangsta rap etc derive a vicarious enjoyment from the violent lyrics and it's interesting to see where people feel things have become unacceptable. i don't want to get into a circular debate as i've got no stake in defending any of this music- like i said it's someone's personal response, that's all...

 

[UFO over easy]

I'm not really getting into a debate about what's acceptable or not really, I listen to plenty of music made by people with pretty questionable values, but it's just a flawed comparison which doesn't really have any bearing on what's being discussed.

 

[bassnation]

i believe tactics is questioning our grime listeners upthread being squeamish of homophobia but not ,as he says, the "n" word or the constant references to criminality, violence etc.

i think hes got a point, either all of its wrong or none of it is.

it makes me cringe when i hear white people using it. in fact white people attempting to use patois or sound street when they come from a fucking mansion in bucks makes me queasy. i'd quote that line "are you really from the endz" if it didn't completely undermine the point i'm trying to make, but you get the idea.

 

[Slothrop]

i think hes got a point, either all of its wrong or none of it is.

With the violence and criminality, maybe, but do you really mean that straight people calling gays faggots is the same as black people calling each other nigga? Again, imo this is more like a white skinhead oi band using the same word, which I don't think so many people would stick up for.

If I was going to rationalize why homophobia in music makes me uncomfortable while general violence doesn't, I'd probably say it has something to do with the difference between hearing general gun talk as just individualist standing up for yourself against the world whereas homophobia is more about going after a minority. But that might well be just a rationalization after the fact that I'm a lot more used to violence than homophobia.

it makes me cringe when i hear white people using it. in fact white people attempting to use patois or sound street when they come from a fucking mansion in bucks makes me queasy. i'd quote that line "are you really from the endz" if it didn't completely undermine the point i'm trying to make, but you get the idea.

Yeah, although if all white people live in mansions I wish someone would sort mine out, and conversely I know black people who'd sound just as stupid if they started trying to sound street as I would.

 

[UFO over easy]

in fact white people attempting to use patois or sound street when they come from a fucking mansion in bucks makes me queasy. i'd quote that line "are you really from the endz" if it didn't completely undermine the point i'm trying to make, but you get the idea.

i still get mocked for sounding so well spoken on radio.. broadcasting live from a nice semi-detached house in ealing

 

[Slothrop]

i still get mocked for sounding so well spoken on radio.. broadcasting live from a nice semi-detached house in ealing

Have you heard Surgeon's show (the guy that used to produce MAH, not the techno one), Electronic Explorations? He sounds like the voiceover on a BBC Schools programme, it's brilliant.

 

[Grievous Angel]

Tactics' assertion of equialence between black men using the word nigga and straight black men using the word faggot / batty man etc as, exclusively, a term of abuse, doesn't make much sense to me.

but there are lots of prejiudices in e3 / other poor parts of London and in grime generally and I wouldn't prioritise homophobia over all the other chauvinisms.

 

[Sick Boy]

Tactics' assertion of equialence between black men using the word nigga and straight black men using the word faggot / batty man etc as, exclusively, a term of abuse, doesn't make much sense to me.

but there are lots of prejiudices in e3 / other poor parts of London and in grime generally and I wouldn't prioritise homophobia over all the other chauvinisms.

I think he was basically trying to highlight that it is strange that some people are made uncomfortable by homophobia, but are almost indifferent to self-destructive, inner-city, intra-race violence that is the basis for what these MCs are talking about: remember, they do see a lot of this stuff.

I get what geezer back there was saying about how the gun violence thing he relates to as standing up for yourself against competition, etc. As a middle white class person myself, I partially relate to it for that same aspect. But that's not entirely where it comes from and for the most part, Dissensians aren't a part of it. The ''N word'' (cringe) getting brought up as a product of this self-destruction in the face of oppression.

I think that's what Tacks was saying. It's a real social issue that white kids make into whatever the fuck they want to suit them so they can relate to it, but homophobia remains homophobia.

Tacks?

 

[noel emits]

Mistersloane said his friends found the track personally offensive, so fair enough. Tactics I think is a black person and I wonder how he would react if I as a white person described him as a nigger, especially if I did it in an aggressive, threatening and hateful manner? Yeah I think anything's up for grabs in art really, but you've got to be aware of what you are doing when you are using certain language. Anyway I switched off the Keysound show as well, not because I was offended but because I was disappointed that that kind of attitude was being backed and represented by people who I would hope would have thought differently about it, however much they like the track. Oh well.

 

[noel emits]

I get what geezer back there was saying about how the gun violence thing he relates to as standing up for yourself against competition, etc. As a middle white class person myself, I partially relate to it for that same aspect.

Well this is why I don't listen to much vocal grime*. I get the rage but the actual expression of it I can only vaguely relate to usually and I can get the gist of that in about 30 seconds, then it's just tedious and grating. I don't get a vicarious thrill off hateful, violent or misogynistic lyrics as a rule, unless they are very good or very funny. Really I think there's enough of all that shit in real life so why would I want to go out of my way to have it coming out of my speakers? Seems a bit odd. I guess I just prefer my age expressed in different ways. No big deal.

* Yes I know not all grime is angry shit.

 

[tom pr]

see FWD/Rinse @ the End on the 22nd? I'm flying down that weekend and i'm up for going- only thing was last time me and my mate went down there at about half ten and the queue was already round the corner. The earliest I'll be able to get there if I'm flying is midnight- was there a seperate queue for people that had got tickets in advance last time (and even better- will there be this time?)

 

[Sick Boy]

Mistersloane said his friends found the track personally offensive, so fair enough. Tactics I think is a black person and I wonder how he would react if I as a white person described him as a nigger, especially if I did it in an aggressive, threatening and hateful manner? Yeah I think anything's up for grabs in art really, but you've got to be aware of what you are doing when you are using certain language. Anyway I switched off the Keysound show as well, not because I was offended but because I was disappointed that that kind of attitude was being backed and represented by people who I would hope would have thought differently about it, however much they like the track. Oh well.

I'm gonna take care to point out also that I understand that calling out a group of people and damning them is a different issue to reporting and expressing your surroundings in a way that is bizarrely empowering and self-destructive. I just thought I'd clarify what I thought Tactics was saying, and point out that they are BOTH issues. The use of battyman never really offended me (a little different when it is blatantly "Boom Bye Bye") since calling people gay as an offhand insult is another one of those things that has lost all meaning but hints at deeper social issues.

I should also point out that (and this goes without saying really) that despite it being a fucked up thing, I still really support all artists making this kind of music and think their views and expressions are extremely important to be heard by all for so many reasons. I just remain respectful, I don't pretend like I ever can FULLY relate, and I keep my opinions humble. I came to this music through punk, and it is the punk spirit that still encourages me personally in my passion for it.

This is some serious thread derailment - new thread perhaps?

 

[noel emits]

I'm gonna take care to point out also that I understand that calling out a group of people and damning them is a different issue to reporting and expressing your surroundings in a way that is bizarrely empowering and self-destructive. I just thought I'd clarify what I thought Tactics was saying, and point out that they are BOTH issues.

Yeah understood. I do see what Tactics sentence meant now and it's fair enough though there is still a big difference in a word being used in reclamation and to subvert it's negative connotations and another word being used as an attack, they're almost opposite cases. Anyway I was just curious about what he was saying and this doesn't have much to do with dubstep.

This is some serious thread derailment - new thread perhaps?

If anyone is really interested in continuing.

 

[fokse vektaire xeven]

I think he was basically trying to highlight that it is strange that some people are made uncomfortable by homophobia, but are almost indifferent to self-destructive, inner-city, intra-race violence that is the basis for what these MCs are talking about: remember, they do see a lot of this stuff.

Thankyou sick boy

Tactics' assertion of equialence

it's just a flawed comparison which doesn't really have any bearing on what's being discussed.

With the violence and criminality, maybe, but do you really mean that straight people calling gays faggots is the same as black people calling each other nigga?

tactics never drew any direct equivalence, though i realise it suits your collective argument to push it this way. he just contextualised things. so we can all revel free of responsibility in this lawless, violent universe as a fiction until we hear the word faggot. then it suddenly becomes uncomfortable. why? you're dealing with these people's actual opinions, ignorant or not. maybe that's the point at which you realise that?

with regards to nigga- let's not forget white djs play these records, so if as you all seem to think it's all about context where does that leave your argument? likewise ufo over easy if we assume hypothetically you're white and tactics is black that changes the nature of his argument according to your line of thinking. maybe you'd feel differently if you'd been on the end of that word as an insult. the fact that it's considered permissible for minority groups to chuck around these epithetical terms internally muddies the waters but that doesn't mean all consider it acceptable.

 

[UFO over easy]

maybe you'd feel differently if you'd been on the end of that word as an insult. the fact that it's considered permissible for minority groups to chuck around these epithetical terms internally muddies the waters but that doesn't mean all consider it acceptable.

again I don't really see what you're trying to argue here, because the point is that people simply aren't checking around the enn word as an insult. That's the issue, and that's why as a comparison it simply doesn't hold up. The terms are being used not only in totally different contexts, but crucially with almost polarised intent.

If what you're saying is, 'hypothetically if it were the case that this word was also being used as an insult in the same context with the same intent, would it be equally unnacceptable?' then of course the resounding answer is yes it would be. No one's saying otherwise.

let's not forget white djs play these records, so if as you all seem to think it's all about context where does that leave your argument?

So it follows that it doesn't affect the argument at all. Contextually, who is so out of touch that they don't realise that words like queer and nigga have been reclaimed, and with regard to intent, well that's the same regardless of where you're playing the music or indeed who is playing it, assuming the message is being communicated clearly by the artists who made the records. I think in cases like these Badness lyrics the message is pretty unambiguous..

 

[noel emits]

I started a new thread for this discussion if it needs to carry on.

http://dissensus.com/showthread.php?p=126235#post126235

 

[nomos]

 

[noel emits]

Oh bloody hell that's funny. I nearly choked on a biscuit.