Apparently Barack "isn't black"

[matt b]

berlisconi has solved the problem- obama is 'tanned'

 

[Client Eastwood]

RE: Shadism - seems mainly to be a 'black' thing - Jamaicans avoiding too much sun because it will make them 'blacker' and the general fetishising of lighter skin - bleaching etc...

Obviously this is the result of centuries of colonial 'divide and rule' practices, with variations on the theme all over the world (the protestant ascendancy here for example), but I would have thought it was rare (or at least rarely vocalised) amongst whites.

Also in Asian (Indian Subcontinent for our American readers) culture. I guess for the same reasons of Empire etc. Being dark is seen as a social disadvantage. In movies the goodies are whiter than the baddies. Im still waiting for a Indoploitation movie : )

 

[Client Eastwood]

Indeed - and the UK.

I think "mixed race" is clearly a better term than "half caste" or "mongrel" and the other horrid stuff which preceded it in common parlance as it is less loaded. But "mixed ethnicity" is a bit of mouthful.

Craner - I skip a lot on here

The current official term is 'mixed heritage' tho the word on the street is 'mix race' without the 'ed' or more simply 'black'.

 

[poetix]

Fairies <---- Race ----> Atoms ----> Chuck Norris

Coming back for a moment to Butler: the general sway of the argument is that gender performativity is the iterative discursive inscription through which a body's sex* is made to appear as coherently organised, the guarantor of the body's integrity. (An unsexed or ambivalently-sexed body is incoherent from the standpoint of the gender system: an object of horror, a hyper-eroticised repository of nasty/nice surprises). There are bodies and languages, and discursive inscription is what naturalises or "ontologises" bodily dispositions, so that sex appears as ontologically stable.

So the argument here is not that gender "is not real" (while biological sex "is real"), but that gendering "realises" sex, fixes its co-ordinates within a gendered reality. Much of the scientific discourse on biological sex is strongly contoured by the discursive limits of the gender system, as Joan Roughgarden has argued quite persuasively. Heteronormativity reaches "all the way down" into the way we construe how bodies function and what they can do.

What I'm trying to indicate is that arguments over whether or not something like race "is real" don't really gain a lot of traction in this kind of situation: and I don't think that saying that some things are more real than others helps very much either - unless one can describe how this variation in intensity of existence is governed, and how it is possible for it to change.

* Yes, sex.

 

[Client Eastwood]

Can people maybe try and sideline the bitchiness, one upmanship, willy waving, tit for tat, point scoring, snappy comebacks, pseudo stalking, personality clash, snideness?

Aye ive sort of lost the thread a bit and for that reason Im out.

 

[zhao]

Also in Asian (Indian Subcontinent for our American readers) culture. I guess for the same reasons of Empire etc. Being dark is seen as a social disadvantage. In movies the goodies are whiter than the baddies.

international standards of beauty are for sure very much influenced by (understatement?) the imagistic aspect of cultural imperialism ---- when the Moors ruled Spain for 500 years and the Afrocentric Islamic golden age was the epitome of progress and modernity, they did not, or were unable to, propagate images of themselves through out the world ---- but even so i bet lots of Europeans wanted to look African, considered African features to be more beautiful, aped styles of dress, etc. the extent to which euro-centric culture have ubiquitously spread their aesthetic preferences in advertising and entertainment in the information age is unprecedented. it is the first time imperialists are able to export, bombard, and overload wholesale images of themselves to the entire world with such rapidity and efficiency. (this explains the caucasoid features of manga characters: japanese are especially fascinated with white people, along with the post-war adoption of capitalism)

with that said, coincidentally, to make matters even more convoluted and confusing, lightness and white are also very old symbols of purity and prized in many cultures such as China and India, predating the current euro-centric world view.

 

[swears]

"My president is black, my Lambo's blue, and I'll be goddamned if my rims ain't too."

 

[crackerjack]

"he's young black and suntanned"

Guess who

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5100973.ece

Is it possible to sack the italian people for repeatedly voting this cunt back in?

 

[jambo]

Yeah, describing someone as suntanned is pretty offensive.

Or is it now that ignoring someone's 'race' and using another descriptor for their appearance is 'racist'?

I'm no fan of Berlusconi (to say the least) and it's a dumb thing for representative of a country to say but this is not uncharacteristic of a way in which older Italian people sometimes talk about dark skinned people. Italians can be quite dark themselves you know. It is usually meant as a compliment.

Is it more 'racist' than calling for a whole nation to be sacked because of one monster? Less PC than using the word 'cunt'?

This is all a bit school playground, and there's more important things people should be writing about SB.

 

[matt b]

...

thanks once again for your insightful comments

 

[jambo]

That means you disagree with me?

Or you don't approve of the angle from which I approach the question?

 

[matt b]

That means you disagree with me?

Or you don't approve of the angle from which I approach the question?

or i don't understand what the chuff you're on about. what points are you trying to make?

 

[jambo]

or i don't understand what the chuff you're on about. what points are you trying to make?

Ah OK, the sarcastic comment and rolling eyes gave a different impression.

..

I think it's absurd to say that describing someone as 'suntanned' is racist.

I ask rhetorically if it is now considered racist to ignore notions of race (which some here seem to think are inherently the grounds of racism) and use a different description?

And I noted that it seems a bit daft to be aiming for the PC high ground while calling for the sacking of an entire people and using the word 'cunt'. I realise crackerjack didn't mean that too seriously and it doesn't bother me, just saying.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Also in Asian (Indian Subcontinent for our American readers) culture. I guess for the same reasons of Empire etc.

Zhao is correct in his post below (edit: I mean above - how was that for teleological? ): the caste connotations of skin colour existed in India long before the British turned up, just as a result of the dark-skinned Dravidian peoples (the original 'native' Indians) having been historically conquered and subjugated by lighter-skinned Indo-Aryans. Though no doubt this worked to the advantage of various foreign groups that have ruled India since then, such as the Persians and much later the British.

 

[droid]

I ask rhetorically if it is now considered racist to ignore notions of race (which some here seem to think are inherently the grounds of racism) and use a different description?

And I noted that it seems a bit daft to be aiming for the PC high ground while calling for the sacking of an entire people and using the word 'cunt'. I realise crackerjack didn't mean that too seriously and it doesn't bother me, just saying.

Isn't it more about intent and identity in this case though? If Obama defines himself as 'black', then isn't Berlusconi's comment an attempt to deny or mock his identity rather than ignoring it?

It's certainly a potentially double edged comment, but given the proponent I doubt it was made out of an enlightened (!) attempt to ignore all notions of race.

RE: Cunt - this has been discussed here i think. Its a perfectly acceptable pejorative in some parts of the world (when not aimed to women).

 

[jambo]

So you can only describe people in the way they choose to describe themselves?

 

[matt b]

I think it's absurd to say that describing someone as 'suntanned' is racist..

really? given berlusconi's record, it wouldn't suprise me. what's your take on jim davidson's 'hilarious' chalky white character?

And I noted that it seems a bit daft to be aiming for the PC high ground

why's this pc highground of which you speak? do you not agree with the idea of treating people equally/ understanding structural inequality etc etc?

 

[mms]

well doesn't darkness, or redness of skin for whites, denote class, ie the implication is that you are tanned as you work outside as a labourer, while the less tanned are more bureaucrats and upper class. It's quite weird as it also implies that darkness of skin is absolutely because of your social standing, so it also implies that it's something that comes with your experiences in life, nonsense of course, although the sun does affect melatonin in all humans.

 

[jambo]

really? given berlusconi's record, it wouldn't suprise me. what's your take on jim davidson's 'hilarious' chalky white character?

OK, you think 'suntanned' is an insult. No problem. Do you think it's specifically 'racist', does it refer to race?

why's this pc highground of which you speak? do you not agree with the idea of treating people equally/ understanding structural inequality etc etc?

I treat people equally. And I agree with the idea of being able to use the language I choose to use and describe things as I see them. There's an English expression for that but I won't use it because obviously it will get people's pathetic oversensitive PC hackles up even though it has a meaning which has nothing to do with skin colour prejudice.

Crackerjack was the one aiming for the PC high ground by taking a PC stance against the language that someone was using.

 

[jambo]

well doesn't darkness, or redness of skin for whites, denote class, ie the implication is that you are tanned as you work outside as a labourer, while the less tanned are more bureacrats and uper class. It's quite weird as it also implies that darkness of skin is absolutely because of your social standing, so it also implies that it's something that comes with your experiences in life, nonsense of course, although the sun does affect melatonin in all humans.

Yes that's interesting. There is also a certain amount of antagonism between northern and southern Italians along these lines.