Apparently Barack "isn't black"

[Mr. Tea]

well doesn't darkness, or redness of skin for whites, denote class, ie the implication is that you are tanned as you work outside as a labourer, while the less tanned are more bureacrats and uper class. It's quite weird as it also implies that darkness of skin is absolutely because of your social standing, so it also implies that it's something that comes with your experiences in life, nonsense of course, although the sun does affect melatonin in all humans.

Well that used to be the case in Europe a couple of hundred years ago - but times changed (as is their wont) and most people, of all social classes, started working indoors, and it became fashionable to go on holiday to hot and sunny places. Hence a tan, which once carried the stigma of the farmhand, became a symbol of beauty and sophistication. Then it became a symbol of people from Essex roasting themselves on the beaches of Marbella, and you had 'heroin chic', the wasted indie/'emo' look and so on...coming and going in cycles, just like other fashions.

 

[crackerjack]

Ah OK, the sarcastic comment and rolling eyes gave a different impression.

..

I think it's absurd to say that describing someone as 'suntanned' is racist.

I ask rhetorically if it is now considered racist to ignore notions of race (which some here seem to think are inherently the grounds of racism) and use a different description?

And I noted that it seems a bit daft to be aiming for the PC high ground while calling for the sacking of an entire people and using the word 'cunt'. I realise crackerjack didn't mean that too seriously and it doesn't bother me, just saying.

i'm not aiming for the PC high ground and I never actually used (or even implied) the word 'racist' in my post. I do think Berlusconi runs a racist government, but in this instance I was more concerned with the leader of a major European country talking like an end-of-pier-act.

But thanks for pointing out that recycled Jim Davidson jokes aren't the only problem with the corrupt media monopolist, Mafia associate, perjurer and former P2 member, I appreciate that.

Are Spiked just breaking you in or something? You know, the rest of them get paid for this piffle, you shouldn't be wasting it here for free.

 

[droid]

So you can only describe people in the way they choose to describe themselves?

Of course not, but surely you could see how the denial of something as crucial to someone's identity as their cultural and racial heritage (I'm black and I'm proud) by a known racist could be seen as offensive?

Also a suntan is something primarily associated with white skin (dem tan - fi look like black man), something which lighter skinned people can choose to obtain and then slough off as it suits them, whereas the darkness of black skin is permanent and is used as an excuse for prejudice and un-equal treatment in many parts of the world - so this could be seen not only as a denial of Obama's 'blackness', but also as a denial of these, very real, inequalities.

 

[Mr. Tea]

To be fair, Kenya's probably pretty sunny, so you can see how SB's confusion arose.

 

[mms]

Well that used to be the case in Europe a couple of hundred years ago - but times changed (as is their wont) and most people, of all social classes, started working indoors, and it became fashionable to go on holiday to hot and sunny places. Hence a tan, which once carried the stigma of the farmhand, became a symbol of beauty and sophistication. Then it became a symbol of people from Essex roasting themselves on the beaches of Marbella, and you had 'heroin chic', the wasted indie/'emo' look and so on...coming and going in cycles, just like other fashions.

sure but we're also taking about connatations of skin colour as a global phenomenon, so this runs with the idea in india that darkness of skin also denotes class, and the idea that lighter skin is more refined in other parts of the world. Maybe the ideas that came from british fashions 200 years ago influenced this idea too, but not essentially.

yeah of course now sun tan in the west is a sign of something else, an all over tan is a sign of having enough income to afford the time to go abroad and lie on a beach for 10 days.
In the US you still have the term 'red neck' which is a slight towards white working class mostly southern farmers etc.

 

[IdleRich]

"OK, you think 'suntanned' is an insult. No problem. Do you think it's specifically 'racist', does it refer to race?"

I think that suntanned was used as an insult in the sense that it describes Obama in a way that is both not correct (well, it may possibly be technically correct but you know what I mean) and not the way that he would probably describe himself. Is it racist? I don't really think it is but he's guilty of something close to racism by both insulting someone and alluding to race at the same time.

 

[poetix]

I hear David Cameron's started frequenting tanning parlours. Can't think what that might be about.

 

[jambo]

I never actually used (or even implied) the word 'racist' in my post. I do think Berlusconi runs a racist government, but in this instance I was more concerned with the leader of a major European country talking like an end-of-pier-act.

I didn't say you did - 'racism' was the thrust of the article.

Perhaps if you'd said more about what you intended in linking the article than Is it possible to sack the Italian people for repeatedly voting this cunt back in? it would have been clearer what your position was.

Are Spiked just breaking you in or something? You know, the rest of them get paid for this piffle, you shouldn't be wasting it here for free.

I don't know what you are talking about but it sounds like an insult.

 

[STN]

There's an English expression for that but I won't use it because obviously it will get people's pathetic oversensitive PC hackles up even though it has a meaning which has nothing to do with skin colour prejudice.

.

it comes from Cicero, I think.

 

[john eden]

OK, you think 'suntanned' is an insult. No problem. Do you think it's specifically 'racist', does it refer to race?

I treat people equally. And I agree with the idea of being able to use the language I choose to use and describe things as I see them. There's an English expression for that but I won't use it because obviously it will get people's pathetic oversensitive PC hackles up even though it has a meaning which has nothing to do with skin colour prejudice.

Crackerjack was the one aiming for the PC high ground by taking a PC stance against the language that someone was using.

It depends on context, doesn't it? "Suntanned" is generally neutral when applied to white people. But it can be used even in that context to fuel racist jokes - "Phil went on holiday, came back looking like a paki" for example.

I imagine "suntanned" can be used as an insult which is non-racist as well - certainly reference to burberry, fake tan, white stilletos etc can be part of a character assassination.

Similarly "calling a spade a spade" - you can of course use that phrase if you wish but there is not doubt that in some circumstances it can be used to highlight racism - for example a white person staring at a black person they have just met and using it pointedly.

And I'm not making these examples up to make a point or offend people - they happened.

So in summary, use what language you like and perhaps other people will use what language they like to criticise you if they feel like it.

 

[crackerjack]

I don't know what you are talking about but it sounds like an insult.

Oh, you should. It's the number one port of call for ambitious young contrarians who think calling a spade a spade makes them a modern day Tom Paine.

 

[matt b]

...

of course 'suntanned' is not specifically racist, but it's coming out of the mouth of a man who has associated himself with racist comments in the past, about a 'black man', so clearly he wasn't complementing him on the lovely glow caused by sun damage.

yeah man, use the language you choose- do you choose nigger, paki, chink etc? or are there reasons why you feel the use of such terms in inappropriate?


and, what's with all this PC high ground rubbish? shouldn't you be on HYS or something?

 

[crackerjack]

and, what's with all this PC high ground rubbish? shouldn't you be on HYS or something?

I just had to Google that - for anyone else so confused, it stands for Have Your Say (the BBC's messageboard and inspiration for Speak Your Brains), not Hamble Yacht Services

 

[vimothy]

Oh, you should. It's the number one port of call for ambitious young contrarians who think calling a spade a spade makes them a modern day Tom Paine.

I remember Living Marxism -- there used to be street-sellers on Market Street every Saturday.

 

[droid]

I just had to Google that - for anyone else so confused, it stands for Have Your Say (the BBC's messageboard and inspiration for Speak Your Brains), not Hamble Yacht Services

The way the BBC go on about Obama you’d think he was standing as a candiate for PM of Britain, not President of the US.

Where’s all your coverage of John McCain?

Oh, he doesn’t fit the PC agenda does he. White man for US President doesn’t have the same multiculti ring as Half Black-Half Muslim for US President does it?​

 

[matt b]

I just had to Google that - for anyone else so confused, it stands for Have Your Say (the BBC's messageboard and inspiration for Speak Your Brains)

HYS is the home of the confused. the daily mail comments boxes are more coherent

 

[jambo]

and, what's with all this PC high ground rubbish? shouldn't you be on HYS or something?

There is a sense here from more than a few of what is acceptable opinion or language and what isn't. Unspoken boundaries being set and ooh ooh ooh's of excitement and outrage when it seems that someone has said the wrong thing. I'm not really interested in PC or non-PC debates but the atmosphere of caution is palpable.

I don't know what HYS is.

 

[matt b]

I'm not really interested in PC or non-PC debates but the atmosphere of caution is palpable..

really, or is there just a whiff of politeness?

and how, when most of your posts mention the PC mafia (i paraphrase) can you claim to not be interested in it?

I don't know what HYS is.

oh boy, you'd LOVE it.

do you care to answer any of my questions?

 

[jambo]

Oh, you should. It's the number one port of call for ambitious young contrarians who think calling a spade a spade makes them a modern day Tom Paine.

Contrarian means someone who says something in a way that isn't immediately familiar to your cosy tribal norms?

Oh hang on I get it, the correct response to this is 'I am not a contrarian'.

 

[matt b]

Contrarian means someone who says something in a way that isn't immediately familiar to your cosy tribal norms?

'kin ell you've been here a week and have posted 100+ times. don't you think its time to get some sleep?