BNP on Question Time
- Thread starter baboon2004
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scottdisco
rip this joint please
etc
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
You got £10 tickets if you turned up at the box office with a copy of the Bible, at one time.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
Martin Dust
Techno Zen Master
That's a very good point Jon ov Eden.
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
Are the BNP not more left-wing than right (not that it really matters)? They are collectivist, nationalist, favour restrictions on free trade and are strongest in labour heartlands (ie. their voters are more likely to be former labour supporters than conservatives).
scottdisco
rip this joint please
i suppose you could argue their nativism (and the trade restrictions you cite) are just as indicative of a certain populist strain of right-leaning impulses historically, though of course they are no economic liberals/right-leaning in that sense. a certain sort of conservatism, maybe. a certain sort of nineteenth century American strain, perhaps.
although some contemporary American trades unions are very protectionist; fair enough.
their (BNP) scorn for trades unions would put them away from a left-leaning bracket, mind you. one's opinion about the right to form collective bargaining associations in your workplace is perhaps more fundamental a judge of political spectrum/axis attitudes than one's relationship to their nation-state you might say. (certainly all the people i know who are the most hostile to unions are Tories.)
Griffin's attitude to mixed-race relationships is certainly more stereotypical of a right-wing view than left, but you could just argue that's semantics.
but there again all their influences and lineages are European neo-fascism. in fairness, anti-semitism is found right and left, whereas anti-Muslim bigotry (at its most visceral anyway, i am not talking about a measured dismissal of the Taliban's moralism) is more a right thing AFAIK.
although some contemporary American trades unions are very protectionist; fair enough.
their (BNP) scorn for trades unions would put them away from a left-leaning bracket, mind you. one's opinion about the right to form collective bargaining associations in your workplace is perhaps more fundamental a judge of political spectrum/axis attitudes than one's relationship to their nation-state you might say. (certainly all the people i know who are the most hostile to unions are Tories.)
Griffin's attitude to mixed-race relationships is certainly more stereotypical of a right-wing view than left, but you could just argue that's semantics.
but there again all their influences and lineages are European neo-fascism. in fairness, anti-semitism is found right and left, whereas anti-Muslim bigotry (at its most visceral anyway, i am not talking about a measured dismissal of the Taliban's moralism) is more a right thing AFAIK.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
certainly a lot of paleo-cons (not that i'm lumping the BNP in there, although they're not a million miles apart) are antiwar for many different reasons.
the Daily Express editorial page (which leans toward British paleo-conservatism - though i am aware paleo-conservatism is a somewhat flip term for a current that has been identified specifically in America) has explicitly argued for British withdrawal from Afghanistan, but going above and beyond usual reasons such as blood and treasure, in addition very clearly implying any positive benefits for Afghan society are not worth it, because Afghan lives are worth intrinsically less than British lives. i don't think a slightly more extreme formulation of that would be too much of a leap for the BNP to view a lot of their world affairs through that sort of prism. it's not as if the party of well-directed boots and fists is scrupulous about the rule of law all the time is it. Griffin mentions international law when it suits him.
apologies for spewing the word "Tories" earlier as it if were some sort of rude word.
crackerjack
Well-known member
You've listed nationalist there with leftist traits. Do you consider nationalism leftist?
Tbh, I think this argument has been had elsewhere and is a bit of a snooze. It's generally brought up by the libertarian right, who (to their credit) have co-opted social liberalism as part of their platform, even though historically it's been a leftwing trait. Racial and sexual equality have traditionally been leftwing causes througout western Europe and America (note the blue-dog Dems all deserted to the Republicans when civil rights were pushed through by a Dem president). Likewise legalisation of homsexuality and abolition of capital punishment.
The left-right terms originated with the French Revolution, where the right favoured traditional authority and the left republicanism (although I concede that ultra-leftists like Hebert and Collot D'Herbois effectively became far more authoritarian than their predecessors).
crackerjack
Well-known member
scottdisco
rip this joint please
scottdisco
rip this joint please
on 'Tory' as pejorative:
sorry Cracker
i am doing my best to be even-handed here, you know what i'm like
sorry Cracker
i am doing my best to be even-handed here, you know what i'm like
crackerjack
Well-known member
wiki def
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
European communist countries were somewhat nationalist. Leftism here would be nationalist were there not a larger socialist collective to be part of (ie. the EU), so I would say they are collectivist-before-nationalist. I thought the Nazis had a fair admixture of leftism in them 'National Sozialistische Duetsche Arbeiter Partei.' As for authoritarianism, the left here micromanages society here and has given as good as the neocons gave abroad so who knows. *parp*
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vimothy
yurp
Paleocon--hmm... I don't really associate American and British conservatives.
The BNP, though--no reason to think that they would be liberal or neocon interventionists, but there is a security argument for constinuing to be in Afghanistan, as well as wanting to respond after 9/11. In my experience (not huge, I assure you) this kind of antiwar sentiment is not uncommon amongst neo-nazis. The BNP is basically not very patriotic--they're anti-establishment.
The BNP, though--no reason to think that they would be liberal or neocon interventionists, but there is a security argument for constinuing to be in Afghanistan, as well as wanting to respond after 9/11. In my experience (not huge, I assure you) this kind of antiwar sentiment is not uncommon amongst neo-nazis. The BNP is basically not very patriotic--they're anti-establishment.
crackerjack
Well-known member
scottdisco
rip this joint please
parp indeed
the National Socialists did start shutting down all independent dissent, inc all trades unions, after a while of course.
(there again, to be fair to you, the leader in Caracas is nominally socialist, and he's not a massive fan of healthy internal debate. then all we need to do, mind, is recall Year 11 politics lessons about the similarities between authoritarians of different economic viewpoints mattering more than the differences when it comes to handling internal security.)
yeah fair call on the first bit Vim, i would agree w you actually. my rather too small example was literally focused on the Express (funnily enough, the British newspaper that has enabled the BNP the most, even more so than the Mail, although they wouldn't thank you for pointing it out), and i know they have as much to do w intellectual traditions of principled British conservatism as Bill Clinton does w marital fidelity.
i think wrt the BNP and Afghanistan i get the impression their basic bottom line is get out, put the drawbridges up, if we put enough walls up round our island home, we should be able to prevent blowback, and this way we're not spilling blood and treasure.
ah, i see Vim and Cracker just answered M_B in a more concise and better way than me.
crackerjack
Well-known member
Sure, they're populist/anti-establishment. But liberal interventionism is obviously anathema to the far-right. And Iraq war in particular obviously ties in with fascism's traditional enemy
edit: incidentally that link came up 3rd on google when i entered 'jews'. there's a lot of sick fucks out there (and a few enquiring scholarly minds, like ours)
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