The Event : How Racist Are You?

[massrock]

Yes racism is shit, but is the cruelty justified?

A couple of hours of mild unpleasantness? And these people are volunteers.

 

[grizzleb]

I dunno, I just don't like getting people to do bad shit, because it's 'the right thing to do'. It's a slipperly slope that shit. "Suck it up lads, we're doing this for the good of the volk. We know this is difficult, but you are made of stronger stuff."

 

[nomadthethird]

Because it's a woman who conducts the experiment, if I disagree with her methods and her experiment it must be because she's a woman? Come on, that's mental. I wouldn't liked to have seen a guy doing that either.

And again, I'm probably just more sensitive to ends not marrying with means than I should be, but whatever. I'm too much of an idealist then. Yes racism is shit, but is the cruelty justified? That's what I take issue with. I never said anything about sex starved hitler either...

No, I realize you didn't say those things.

But I find it depressing if unsurprising that yours and credit crunch's objections to the experiment hinge so heavily on normativity.

Why protect these normative constraints as if they're so important and precious when they're what's keeping people oppressed in the first place? This is what bothers me about normativity-based ethics.

 

[grizzleb]

No, I realize you didn't say those things.

But I find it depressing if unsurprising that yours and credit crunch's objections to the experiment hinge so heavily on normativity.

Why protect these normative constraints as if they're so important and precious when they're what's keeping people oppressed in the first place? This is what bothers me about normativity-based ethics.

What, recoiling from cruelty is keeping people oppressed? Not daring to go beyong good and evil is what keeps people getting shat on?

 

[nomadthethird]

What, recoiling from cruelty is keeping people oppressed? Not daring to go beyong good and evil is what keeps people getting shat on?

Well, yes and no.

I don't think that within the context of that experiment what was going on constitutes "cruelty" by any stretch of the imagination.

But yes, sometimes a more 'violent' rupture might be necessary. If you went around recoiling from all of life's cruel and violent experiences you'd have a pretty dull life wouldn't you?

 

[grizzleb]

Well, yes and no.

I don't think that within the context of that experiment what was going on constitutes "cruelty" by any stretch of the imagination.

But yes, sometimes a more 'violent' rupture might be necessary. If you went around recoiling from all of those experiences you'd have a pretty dull life wouldn't you?

I do have a dull life, haha. I guess I'm too sensititve and too much of an idealist really. And I'm always suspicious of people's motives for doing these things. Anyone who gains satisfaction (which she must do if she has made a career out of it) from work that involves shouting abuse at people is someone to be worried about, and that type of attitude for me is at the kernel of why things are fucked up. The concept of insight from violence, abuse, etc just is something I don't like, and this idea that because an event happened in some socially acceptable construct of education doesn't make it 'real' is another one too. If you seen someone in some seminar about 'Jesus' or whatnot be 'broken down' to gain 'insight' you wouldn't think it was a good thing, you'd think it was abuse, would you not?

 

[nomadthethird]

I do have a dull life, haha. I guess I'm too sensititve and too much of an idealist really. And I'm always suspicious of people's motives for doing these things. Anyone who gains satisfaction (which she must do if she has made a career out of it) from work that involves shouting abuse at people is someone to be worried about, and that type of attitude for me is at the kernel of why things are fucked up. The concept of insight from violence, abuse, etc just is something I don't like, and this idea that because an event happened in some socially acceptable construct of education doesn't make it 'real' is another one too. If you seen someone in some seminar about 'Jesus' or whatnot be 'broken down' to gain 'insight' you wouldn't think it was a good thing, you'd think it was abuse, would you not?

I have no idea why this person chose her career, and I have no idea what most of her career entails. It's altogether possible that this TV show was some kind of sideline for her. But if she does dedicate her life to raising awareness about racism, I'm all for it. Bravo. I hope she does piss people off and make them think.

And I think that if some white woman crying because she volunteered for an experiment and was called "worthless" after signing all kinds of waivers--well, she should get a grip on reality. There are people with real problems in the world. Serious and real ones. And that doesn't count in my book. She should cry for the people who get called worthless everyday and nobody does anything about it, not for her own damn privileged self.

You're not even going to hear the world's tiniest violin playing for that kind of nonsense.

Edit: Also, people routinely "break people down" at churches. I've been to them. You get called a sinner over and over and told you need to repent, and blah blah blah, you're bad, you're evil, you're not right, original sin, blah blah blah, you'd better be scared of God, etc.

 

[grizzleb]

People do have real problems, but they stem from a readiness for people to be dicks to each other, and it'd be a helluva nice if they weren't so up for it. You get some really bad shit when you get people to do 'difficult' 'hard' stuff to other people for 'the greater good'. FACT.

 

[grizzleb]

Edit: Also, people routinely "break people down" at churches. I've been to them. You get called a sinner over and over and told you need to repent, and blah blah blah, you're bad, you're evil, you're not right, original sin, blah blah blah, you'd better be scared of God, etc.

That was my point.

 

[nomadthethird]

People do have real problems, but they stem from a readiness for people do be dicks to each other, and it'd be a helluva nice if they weren't so up for it. You get some really bad shit when you get people to do 'difficult' 'hard' stuff to other people for 'the greater good'. FACT.

Grizzle, I've actually been abused and had bad shit happen to me. And it's nothing like volunteering for a social experiment and having the psychologist say some mildly not-nice things in a role-play. My guess is that if you think the two things are equivalent in some way, you've had a damn easy life and have probably never been abused.

 

[nomadthethird]

That was my point.

Some people find church very therapeutic, though, for that very reason.

 

[Dusty]

I only saw the last 10 minutes, but found it odd when Krishnan Guru-Murthy asked her the loaded question "So are all white people racist?" To which she didn't seem to recognise the irony.

Am I missing something here, or was her experiment all about showing the racism inherent in a white-dominated system only? Is this because she comes from the terrible repression of blacks by whites in the US deep South and doesn't recognise wider issues? I can't believe it was this narrow minded and dare I say flawed? All in all I was confused and don't feel any urge to see the whole thing. Please correct me if I got the wrong end of the stick.

 

[nomadthethird]

I only saw the last 10 minutes, but found it odd when Krishnan Guru-Murthy asked her the loaded question "So are all white people racist?" To which she didn't seem to recognise the irony.

Am I missing something here, or was her experiment all about showing the racism inherent in a white-dominated system only? Is this because she comes from the terrible repression of blacks by whites in the US deep South and doesn't recognise wider issues? I can't believe it was this narrow minded and dare I say flawed? All in all I was confused and don't feel any urge to see the whole thing. Please correct me if I got the wrong end of the stick.

What other kinds of systems might you be interested in her exploring, other than white-dominated ones?

 

[massrock]

Some background

http://www.janeelliott.com/

 

[grizzleb]

Jesus. I've got nothing to say to that. Of course it's not the same thing. There are degrees to which people abuse each other, but saying just because even worse shit happens that something slightly unpleasant in comparison shouldn't happen is crazy. It's not a huge deal what happened with that woman crying, OK? But that doesn't mean I can't be mildly fucked off about it, or think that people who engage in that practise aren't fucked up.

Also - you don't have a fucking clue about my life BTW. It's a bit cheap appealing to whether or not I've been abused ???

 

[nomadthethird]

Oh yeah!

We did this in second grade. I remember.

Brown eyed people went first. We all got extra stickers for bonus calendar.

I was the only person who gave the sticker back to the teacher.

 

[Dusty]

What other kinds of systems might you be interested in her exploring, other than white-dominated ones?

Are we saying that racism isn't a problem in Jamaica for example? That you don't find gangs of racist Asian youths on the streets of the UK? That the Chinese hate the Japanese. The question isn't 'are white people racist?' it's 'are people racist?'.

 

[nomadthethird]

Grizzle, I was not appealing to you for anything. I'm just saying. That's not a big deal, it's not technically "abuse" even if it's not really very nice.

Ok, so Jane Elliot is not a psychologist. She's a teacher.

This video I suppose is supposed to be shocking, but these kids are acting exactly the way kids always acted at my school, and how they demonstrably act at every school. Whether it was fat kids, skinny kids, tall kids, kids with disabilities, kids with speech delays, poor kids, kids who weren't good looking, kids who were ethnic minorities-- the taunting and the ostracizing, it was all already there. The blue eye/brown eye exercise just shows kids that these sorts of characteristics are entirely arbitrary and beyond the control of the person.

I think experimenting with kids should be tightly controlled, of course, and Jane Elliot is clearly not a trained psychologist. Still, not a big deal.

 

[nomadthethird]

Are we saying that racism isn't a problem in Jamaica for example? That you don't find gangs of racist Asian youths on the streets of the UK? That the Chinese hate the Japanese. The question isn't 'are white people racist?' it's 'are people racist?'.

Of course, all people are racist. But when you're in a predominantly white society, where you're in a post-colonial diaspora, it does make sense to focus on the ways in which white people are privileged over others in that society.

 

[Dusty]

Seems a rather childish simplification to me. I can't see how you overcome racial tension by labelling the white man the racist problem.