Jeremy Corbyn
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sadmanbarty
Well-known member
Kurdish success in Kobani and Tal Abyad as well as the capture of Brigade 93 display the effectiveness of air support when coupled with an effective ground force. FSA's withdrawal from Ayn Issa due to lack of air support shows that air strikes are decisive in this regard.
So I'm pro-bombing in support for Kurdish operations.
If the west were to reengage with the Souther Front, I'd be in support of air strikes against I.S. in Daraa (though their presence is minimal there).
If at some point in the future a credible Sunni-Arab group were recapturing I.S. areas along the Euphrates and around Palmyra, I'd support UK air strikes with them as well.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
Why?
luka
Well-known member
It depends on what your goals are. For example Craner is very concerned with Islam as an existential threat to Western Civ, and more mundanely, the containment of Iran and the security of Israel. Woebot is largely concerned with energy security.
I can't see what is to be gained by a bit of aimless bomb lobbing. That's why I think it's moronic. Im also broadly opposed to killing people.
I can't see what is to be gained by a bit of aimless bomb lobbing. That's why I think it's moronic. Im also broadly opposed to killing people.
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droid
Well-known member
Bombing ISIS whilst giving arms and military support to the Saudis and their allies is ridiculous.
Also, 60,000+ sorties flown already.
Britain is the tardy lickspittle leaping over the other boys into the midst of a good schoolyard beating so he can snivel at the bully's feet.
Also, 60,000+ sorties flown already.
Britain is the tardy lickspittle leaping over the other boys into the midst of a good schoolyard beating so he can snivel at the bully's feet.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
And it's been totally mis-sold. Three fucking years of bombing? That suggests that all this talk of the precision effectiveness of UK weapons is, well, a big fucking lie.
I can see the point about support for Kurdish ground forces, but in that case why isn't the UK (at least not publicly) demanding that Turkey stop its embargo on Kurdish Syria, and stop indirectly/directly supporting Isis?
As for a credible Sunni Arab group - well, that seems to be pie in the sky at the moment. And on that note, what diplomacy work is going on with Saudi Arabia to stop them propping up fundamentalist, Salafist (if that's the right word) interpretations of Sunni Islam? Well, as Droid says, probably none because it would upset 'our' weapons contracts.
60 000 sorties? where's the info on that, cos if even half true, that's nuts
I can see the point about support for Kurdish ground forces, but in that case why isn't the UK (at least not publicly) demanding that Turkey stop its embargo on Kurdish Syria, and stop indirectly/directly supporting Isis?
As for a credible Sunni Arab group - well, that seems to be pie in the sky at the moment. And on that note, what diplomacy work is going on with Saudi Arabia to stop them propping up fundamentalist, Salafist (if that's the right word) interpretations of Sunni Islam? Well, as Droid says, probably none because it would upset 'our' weapons contracts.
60 000 sorties? where's the info on that, cos if even half true, that's nuts
droid
Well-known member
It was 44,000 US sorties alone by June IIRC. Then there's everybody else. I think that number is approximately correct.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
I only skimmed through Craner's blog, so if he was saying what you're saying he was, then I retract my previous comments about it being a good piece.
Regardless of the conflict as a whole do you think that the recapture of the Kobani canton was 1) a good thing and 2) in part thanks to air support?
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Does the Free Syrian Army exist in any real sense? The name is being dredged up again now.
craner
Beast of Burden
Islamic State is what it states it is, a state. And the most important asset a terror organisation can have is a safe territory from which to operate. Given the threat they pose, the very least that should be done is to undermine their control of that territory, like the 2001 campaign in Afghanistan did to al-Qaeda (at least temporarily). So, yes, I reckon air strikes will have a significant role to play in the destruction of Islamic State, but absolutely nobody in yesterday's debate claimed that bombs alone will do it.
droid
Well-known member
Ahahahaha. And what happened next Oliver?
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
Only really in the Daraa, it's called the Southern Front, supposedly 25,000 strong. That being said it's debatable as to whether it's militarily successful without fighting alongside jihadist groups. The MOC has stopped supporting it this year, so it seems to be disbanding; the leaders are escaping to Europe and other members are either joining jihadi's or defecting back to the Syrian army. It was never particularly cohesive due to tribal rivalry's etc.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
ok, let me rephrase. is it used as a shifting umbrella term for groups the west likes at any given time? says here
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/free-syrian-army-decimated-desertions-151111064831800.html
that it's made up of over 2,000 factions. Doesn't sound like a genuine cohesive entity to me.
craner
Beast of Burden
Well, I don't know much about its current configuration, but in 2013 is was made up of numerous brigades of varying quality, but it had some form of command structure linked to the then Supreme Military Council. The main worry at that time was the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood on the FSA, due to the strong paternal role of Turkey. It was cohesive to an extent, but fragile, which is why it has always been so weak in comparison to Jabhat al-Nusra, Ahrar al-Sham and Islamic State.
Frankly, the West wasted its only opportunity to nurture a decent and effective opposition to Assad and the Islamists back in 2012, and the moderate brigades and politicians got smashed and/or fled sharpish.
Frankly, the West wasted its only opportunity to nurture a decent and effective opposition to Assad and the Islamists back in 2012, and the moderate brigades and politicians got smashed and/or fled sharpish.