pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
Well I can assure you all that I am not going to be radicalised any time soon.
Brooker on 9/11 conspiracies
- Thread starter shiels
- Start date
Well I can assure you all that I am not going to be radicalised any time soon.
droid
Well-known member
No, the idea that a family of Jewish bankers runs the world is not on the table for discussion, mainly because it's an anti semitic trope used by the Nazis to help execute the Holocaust (Goebbels actually made film about the Rothschilds - Die Rothschilds Aktien auf Waterloo), and has been pushed by every right wing scumbag ever since.
False accusations of anti-semitism are often used as an excuse to censure and stifle legitimate criticism of Israel, and to attack left wing politicians and activists, its true - but that is a qualitatively and contextually different phenomenon.
The fact is that there have been a shitload of powerful and rich people who have had all kinds of undue influence of the world. Some of them were Jewish. In my experience, any writer or commentator who focuses solely on them is, invariably, dodgy as fuck and you shouldn't touch them with a barge pole.
False accusations of anti-semitism are often used as an excuse to censure and stifle legitimate criticism of Israel, and to attack left wing politicians and activists, its true - but that is a qualitatively and contextually different phenomenon.
The fact is that there have been a shitload of powerful and rich people who have had all kinds of undue influence of the world. Some of them were Jewish. In my experience, any writer or commentator who focuses solely on them is, invariably, dodgy as fuck and you shouldn't touch them with a barge pole.
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
Got it. No further questions your honour. Sorry to derail what was actually a positive little thread revival. Maybe we can get back to that? Or at least tease Tea a bit?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah, this is like when I was warning you off taking anything David Icke or Alex Jones says seriously a couple of weeks ago. We're not wagging our fingers at you because we enjoy telling you off and feeling superior. It's genuine concern. Even luka feels that way, and it's no secret that conspiracy theories in general are like mother's milk to him. This is a route you really, really don't want to go down.
To bring things back to the original thread topic, I remember it took about three days after 9/11 before some dickhead started a rumour that all Jewish employees at the WTC had been warned to call in sick that morning.
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
I've been down this route for a long, long time, Tea. I'm not going to the dark side. It would have already happened. I was way deeper down the rabbit hole as a weed smoking teen. Have come a long way since then. But I still want to understand things - which requires probing. When something is off limits like this I want to know why. Like why don't all the other cultures who the UK fucked over, mass murdered, stole their land and resources have something similar? Why is that long list of atrocities OK to talk about? Saying 'we just don't talk about that' isn't helpful. But I won't be probing this subject any further, don't worry. I can go and do my own research, but I thought maybe dissensus would have its own enlightened pov. When you're reading online it's hard to work out which sources are reliable so it's good to talk on places like this with intelligent people, where you can aggregate the responses and hopefully come up with something satisfying. But, I get this subject is too much for most, so like I already said, no further questions. My father is Jewish fwiw.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
When we talk about antisemitism and its relationship to conspiracy theories, then even when we're addressing you directly, absolutely no-one here is implying that you actually hate Jews or think they're all involved in some big sinister plot. Only the most literal and severe antisemites think that. Unfortunately it's still possible for people who aren't personally antisemitic to entertain theories that are antisemitic.
OK, well if you're referring to the time when I said there was no point debating something like the historicity of the Holocaust, it's for two reasons, one logical and one political and ethical.
The logical reason is that there is absolutely tons of evidence that it happened, and that evidence is unequivocal and extremely well documented. Arguing that there is any space for doubt about it is like arguing that the earth "might" be flat after all. It simply isn't.
The political and ethical argument is that the only reason anyone could have for trying to "debate" this issue is that they feel, at some level, that the actual Holocaust that happened was a good thing, and should be completed at some point. Or, at the very least, that they have some sympathy with those who perpetrated the original crime.
Same goes for anyone who tries to give the false impression that there is any serious scientific doubt about the causes of global climate change. There simply isn't, and the creation of this false impression serves only to perpetuate and worsen the crisis.
So if some things are considered "off limits", there is sometimes an extremely good reason for it.
OK, well if you're referring to the time when I said there was no point debating something like the historicity of the Holocaust, it's for two reasons, one logical and one political and ethical.
The logical reason is that there is absolutely tons of evidence that it happened, and that evidence is unequivocal and extremely well documented. Arguing that there is any space for doubt about it is like arguing that the earth "might" be flat after all. It simply isn't.
The political and ethical argument is that the only reason anyone could have for trying to "debate" this issue is that they feel, at some level, that the actual Holocaust that happened was a good thing, and should be completed at some point. Or, at the very least, that they have some sympathy with those who perpetrated the original crime.
Same goes for anyone who tries to give the false impression that there is any serious scientific doubt about the causes of global climate change. There simply isn't, and the creation of this false impression serves only to perpetuate and worsen the crisis.
So if some things are considered "off limits", there is sometimes an extremely good reason for it.
sufi
lala
amazingly patronising attitudes towards pattycakes here :crylarf:
i agree with droid too, but i also see what patty means about
Allowing it tio be a closed topic is unacceptable as that stifles important needed conversations about memorialising, about cancellation or rehabilitation of past antisemites, of the complexity of our current prejudices - Tottenham are playing Leipzig tonight, THFC fans were chanting some garbled version of their famous chant on my train home, today
Closing the topic feeds into the bogus free speech complaints, makes martyrs of the alt-right
I certainly feel self-conscious, nervous about writing this - it's on the record and i personally have been raised in a racist, anti-semitic culture (UK) as well as being an "Arabist" - so despite my strong beliefs and struggles for social equality, i fear some latent prejudice being exposed, so probably better delete this, not speak up, be cowed
i agree with droid too, but i also see what patty means about
sadly antisemitism is a like a taboo topic. so it's hard to discuss, and more so publicly and remotely like this. but it is possible to discuss antisemitism without becoming an antisemite, what's tricky is to do so without revealing the antisemitism that is part of our culture,
Allowing it tio be a closed topic is unacceptable as that stifles important needed conversations about memorialising, about cancellation or rehabilitation of past antisemites, of the complexity of our current prejudices - Tottenham are playing Leipzig tonight, THFC fans were chanting some garbled version of their famous chant on my train home, today
Closing the topic feeds into the bogus free speech complaints, makes martyrs of the alt-right
I certainly feel self-conscious, nervous about writing this - it's on the record and i personally have been raised in a racist, anti-semitic culture (UK) as well as being an "Arabist" - so despite my strong beliefs and struggles for social equality, i fear some latent prejudice being exposed, so probably better delete this, not speak up, be cowed
sufi
lala
anti semitism has deep roots in so many cultures, so its hard to untangle how it affects us, hard to be confident to address genuine questions, like what to do with antisemitic carving on a historical building for example
It's maybe one of the most long established "issues" of this type, but there are lots more, like race, which we white folk make hard to discuss - modern life seems to be increasingly full of them and they are increasingly thrown in our faces, but we are also attracted to the grisly visceral nature of these subjects, we promote them in our media even while disavowing them, failing to acknowledge the nastiness of these fascinating difficult subjects
brexit, immigration, abortion, corbynism, the list goes on - the way these topics are discussed so often feels different from reasoned, contstructive discussion - positions are taken that reflect extremes, i think often the attitudes displayed betray bogus thinking.
these topics that disturb people and split us into camps, often based on setup positions that are demonstrative of loyality rather than the actual merits of the issue. conspiracy theory accusing is just one way to close down useful discussions of "sensitive" topics, all manner of smears are employed as it's like no holds barred, all in, to the death
this place imho has hosted some pretty good if sometimes rowdy, maybe one sided, and totally gender unbalanced, but worthwhile conversations and needs to keep doing that innit
It's maybe one of the most long established "issues" of this type, but there are lots more, like race, which we white folk make hard to discuss - modern life seems to be increasingly full of them and they are increasingly thrown in our faces, but we are also attracted to the grisly visceral nature of these subjects, we promote them in our media even while disavowing them, failing to acknowledge the nastiness of these fascinating difficult subjects
brexit, immigration, abortion, corbynism, the list goes on - the way these topics are discussed so often feels different from reasoned, contstructive discussion - positions are taken that reflect extremes, i think often the attitudes displayed betray bogus thinking.
these topics that disturb people and split us into camps, often based on setup positions that are demonstrative of loyality rather than the actual merits of the issue. conspiracy theory accusing is just one way to close down useful discussions of "sensitive" topics, all manner of smears are employed as it's like no holds barred, all in, to the death
this place imho has hosted some pretty good if sometimes rowdy, maybe one sided, and totally gender unbalanced, but worthwhile conversations and needs to keep doing that innit
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
Is the Chateau Lafite '96 really the finest bottle ever?
luka
Well-known member
We've done both of those already
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
Fuck IQ.
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
There's some classic stuff going on here. Eden bringing up lizards, tea bringing up the Holocaust which I didn't even mention and droid saying I was talking about one family after I'd already posted it's usually 8 that get the spotlight. Oh yeah, and equating talking about a once rich and powerful family with a whole religion! The reason I focused on the Rothschilds is because they're the ones who get the most attention, even though there are other Jewish (and non Jewish!) families involved in the same networks and actually much better documented to be involved in or at least connected to major players on the social engineering stage. Oppenheimers for eg. But yeah, the reaction it provokes is all too reminiscent of the sort of thing the left are always going on at the far right for doing. Red flagsville.