prostitution

Benny B

Well-known member

just quickly then...

3rd parties (society) are always involved in some capacity. We cannot talk about prostitution as a free-choice with no 3rd parties involved, as if it doesn't have a knock-on affect on society as a whole. Male prostitution is part of the same dynamic created by patriarchy, so its really no different. The 'happy hooker myth' is just that: a myth.

so, in a word, no to all three questions
 

Benny B

Well-known member
but very few jobs require the loss of personal & bodily integrity, potential emotional impact, level of intimacy etc. required by prostitution. Pretty sure you'd make a fairly severe distinction if you were in that position yourself.

THIS
 

droid

Well-known member
just quickly then...

3rd parties (society) are always involved in some capacity. We cannot talk about prostitution as a free-choice with no 3rd parties involved, as if it doesn't have a knock-on affect on society as a whole. Male prostitution is part of the same dynamic created by patriarchy, so its really no different. The 'happy hooker myth' is just that: a myth.

so, in a word, no to all three questions

Well hang on a sec - you cant argue that female prostitution is misogyny writ large and then apply the same logic to male prostitution. It literally makes no sense.

If you're saying that there is absolutely no circumstances where a woman could offer sex for money, then I have to agree with Ben, you're completely ignoring the free will & agency of these women.

As a corollary of that, there are women sex workers who say they enjoy their work - are these women lying, misguided or confused, or perhaps incapable of comprehending their own desires?
 

Benny B

Well-known member
you are asking the right questions droid, but your conclusions seem to amount to: the demand/capitalism/patriarchy has always been there and always will be, and so theres no point in resistance.

edit: xp
 

Benny B

Well-known member
Well hang on a sec - you cant argue that female prostitution is misogyny writ large and then apply the same logic to male prostitution. It literally makes no sense.

yes I can, women are perfectly capable of holding patriarchal views, and men can be victims of it too. like I said, no one is outside the system or not affected by it. Again this is where feminism can come in to raise awareness.
 

droid

Well-known member
Well, what Im trying to do is cast doubt in the conviction of both sides in the hope of achieving some middle ground.

Im looking for a logical & flexible moral framework that accepts the fact that these things are messy and universal principles are not always applicable, and I have to say, Ive found both sides wanting.

One thing I can say to everyone's credit is that they seem to be coming at this from a good place (except for tea, who is clearly a monster).
 

Benny B

Well-known member
If you're saying that there is absolutely no circumstances where a woman could offer sex for money, then I have to agree with Ben, you're completely ignoring the free will & agency of these women.

As a corollary of that, there are women sex workers who say they enjoy their work - are these women lying, misguided or confused, or perhaps incapable of comprehending their own desires?

patriarchy will tend to do that. if happy hookers do exist it must surely be a drop in the ocean. and you've already seen the arguments for why that happiness is impossible to achieve under decriminalisation
 
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droid

Well-known member
yes I can, women are perfectly capable of holding patriarchal views, and men can be victims of it too. like I said, no one is outside the system or not affected by it. Again this is where feminism can come in to raise awareness.

FWIW - i was thinking of gay male prostitution ('arent you always!' sez the peanut gallery), but it must be said that the dynamic of the gigolo is very different from traditional male on female prostitution.
 
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droid

Well-known member
patriarchy will tend to do that. if happy hookers do exist it must surely be a drop in the ocean.

Ah - but they do exist, which means they can exist, which means it is possible to have happy women + prostitution, which means with the right formula perhaps many female prostitutes could be happy.

Right?
 

Benny B

Well-known member
Ah - but they do exist, which means they can exist, which means it is possible to have happy women + prostitution, which means with the right formula perhaps many female prostitutes could be happy.

Right?

if you're looking for absolutes - i don't think it is possible for anything more than a tiny proportion of 'happy prostitutes' to exist, as long as prostitution exists at all. The 'right formula' you are searching for does not exist.
 

droid

Well-known member
if you're looking for absolutes - i don't think it is possible for anything more than a tiny proportion of 'happy prostitutes' to exist, as long as prostitution exists at all. The 'right formula' you are searching for does not exist.

But the potential is there though isnt it?

Lets widen the net. I know few people who are 'happy' in their jobs, and many who are unhappy, but they consider it a reasonable compromise in return for their wage and certainly do not feel abused.

It stands to reason that there must be a reasonable cohort of sex workers who feel this way, certainly a larger group than those who say they 'love' their work. How do we make this cohort larger?
 

droid

Well-known member
Thats not logical. And it feels like Im hitting a dogma wall here.

Happy prostitutes cannot exist because prostitution is bad because there are no happy prostitutes.
 

vimothy

yurp
Which? Socks and sandals?

Wouldn't it be absolutely morally wrong to force "a seemingly cheerful & healthy migrant in her 20's" to work as a prostitute, because her "family has been threatened and [she] is forced to give up 90% of her income if she ever wants to see her passport again"? Or are there some states of the world where that's okay?
 

droid

Well-known member
I don't want to take things off topic, though I am surely deserving of some Vimothian interrogation, but sure, I would think so, but I also guess i could conceive of some scenarios where it is less absolute - but generally, I would say enslavement is one of those things that is not grey.
 

Benny B

Well-known member
Thats not logical. And it feels like Im hitting a dogma wall here.

Happy prostitutes cannot exist because prostitution is bad because there are no happy prostitutes.

you are definitely hitting some kind of wall.

Under pressure from you to come up with some sort of magical absolute catch-all statement I (admittedly reluctantly) qualified it to say that no more than a 'tiny' amount of 'happy' prostitutes could ever exist as long as prostitution itself exists.

your interpretation of what i was saying:'prostitution is bad because there are no happy prostitutes' does not cover all the negative effects of prostitution on society as a whole.

the argument may seem circular, but the real vicious circle is the one created by patriarchy. no wonder we're all tied up in knots!
 

droid

Well-known member
Im trying to prompt you to examine your own beliefs, as it seems from the outside that they have led you to completely dismiss the explicitly expressed wishes of a reasonably large number of women who have direct firsthand experience of prostitution - arguably a manifestation of the patriarchy you yourself oppose.

It may be that the solution is different in different places. it may be that, like drugs, we will have to have decriminalisation/legalisation to bring things out into the open before an honest conversation can take place and the wider societal issues are tackled effectively. It may be that range of approaches - some contradictory - are necessary.

One thing that I am certain of is that a dogmatic, proscriptive approach based on inflexible, abstract moral principles is not capable of providing a good answer, or even a completely persuasive argument.
 
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