prostitution

[droid]

I'm not sure this is true. A huge amount of sex work in the UK is conducted through Internet sites now through which sex workers advertise and screen their clients - who are essentially ranked/reviewed, with any problems or difficulties flagged up. People can choose not to accept clients who don't satisfy certain feedback criteria or who don't have enough feedback. The Swedish model (criminalisation of clients) makes this system impossible, as clients would not be willing to register for such a service, making screening much more difficult. The obvious response to policies like this which affect safety are for sex workers to work together in groups - but unfortunately as Tea has mentioned, a group of two or more sex workers now legally constitutes 'brothel keeping' and is also illegal.

OK, on the face of it this seems like a decent argument against the Swedish model, but on the other hand I can think of about a thousand ways offhand to game that system from both sides.

Can you say with any conviction that someone who wishes to buy sex in the UK online or otherwise has any way to be certain the woman involved is not being coerced, abused or exploited?

Is there a source you trust that indicates the level of trafficking and/or vulnerable women forced or coerced into prostitution in the UK?

 

[craner]

Just as a point of order, Benny, when everybody is interrogating you so closely, it seems a bit off to just post links and declare, "there! That's what I think!"

 

[craner]

Although that has been Droid's default tactic in other contexts.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Just as a point of order, Benny, when everybody is interrogating you so closely, it seems a bit off to just post links and declare, "there! That's what I think!"

I know but ive alrwady gone through practically all the arguments and cant really be arsed repeating them again . I like that article in particular because its a neat summary. Have you read the whole thread?

 

[craner]

Pretty much, but I don't have anything enlightening to say on the subject. It's a very interesting and engaging thread, though, don't get me wrong.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Pretty much, but I don't have anything enlightening to say on the subject. .

Shame. Its probably time for some other people to speak up now

 

[droid]

Regarding the class/type of feminism issue. So we have a few basic categories:

1. Academic feminists of a certain vintage who hold Dworkinesque positions and endorse neo-abolitionist or prohibitionist positions.
   
2. Sex-workers & (mostly) 3rd wave feminists who generally endorse decriminalisation or legalisation.
   
3. Those forced into sex work who are essentially voiceless but (from my knowledge) tend to support the first position.

So category 1 accuses category 2 of ignoring reality, being out of touch etc. - fine. But what about the category of sex workers who are not organised, by virtue of being trafficked, abused, coerced - are they not being ignored by the 2nd category? Given the experience in holland & germany (if even half of it is true), dont the demands of the second group fail to take into account the needs of the third?

 

[droid]

Although that has been Droid's default tactic in other contexts.

One thing I dont think I can be accused of is a reticence to give my opinion.

 

[UFO over easy]

Can you say with any conviction that someone who wishes to buy sex in the UK online or otherwise has any way to be certain the woman involved is not being coerced, abused or exploited?

No. This isn't an argument for the Swedish model, however, and is consistent with my viewpoint.

Is there a source you trust that indicates the level of trafficking and/or vulnerable women forced or coerced into prostitution in the UK?

No, because as we've discussed the legal definition of trafficking is broken, as it includes economic migrants who voluntarily enter into sex work in order to support themselves. Ridiculously, a sex worker can also be charged with trafficking their friend if a client requests an appointment with two people, and they make an appointment for them and that friend. In some places trafficking is legally defined as 'aiding prostitution' and people can be charged with 'trafficking themselves' into sex work.

There are some examples here of 'trafficking' cases and the variety of things that can actually describe - http://titsandsass.com/sex-trafficking-a-media-guide/#more-21442

The author, a sex worker, claims not to be able to find a single case example where a trafficking charge describes forced prostitution.

Given the experience in holland & germany (if even half of it is true), dont the demands of the second group fail to take into account the needs of the third?

I don't think so, because proper regulation in the long term would account for this, and enable the police to do their jobs more effectively. It would be a long term project involving a lot of trust rebuilding between communities - eg sex workers, government and the police. As Tea has said, the problems in Holland and Germany are evidence of poor regulation and ineffective policing, not that sex work itself is a root cause of exploitation.

Benny - I didn't miss the Meghan Murphy article. I believe all points within the article have been covered extensively.
I also believe Meghan Murphy to be a transphobe and a racist. This is a letter signed by various sex worker action groups, transgender activist groups and Black Lives Matter reps in Canada to that effect - http://shamelessmag.com/blog/entry/an-open-letter-to-the-editors-of-rabble.ca

 

[droid]

OK, but the ILO stats I posted above claim 4.5 million worldwide, which is a fairly staggering number. There must be some indication of numbers in the UK - if only to act as a guide.

No. This isn't an argument for the Swedish model, however, and is consistent with my viewpoint.

Im not saying otherwise, but basically, as the situation stands, a man buying sex from a woman in the UK has no way to know if the woman is being coerced? That, to me, does not seem like a particularly ethical transaction.

 

[UFO over easy]

Edit - wrong stat. Yep that's terrible.

I don't know of numbers in the UK. A couple of the reports I've posted in response to Benny have numbers for the US and New Zealand I think.

 

[droid]

There must be some reasonable numbers somewhere - the ILO seem reputable.

The EU claims 30,000 registered victims over 3 years , 69% victim of sexual exploitation, which makes about 22,000 (presumably the real numbers are much higher), but those figures alone seem unacceptably high.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29660126

 

[droid]

Is there a real risk that decriminalisation if not implemented properly (and I assume it wont be) will, at the least, make the situation worse for these women?

 

[UFO over easy]

No one in their right mind would argue against that, but forced sexual exploitation isn't sex work and it's obviously not what sex worker activist groups are lobbying for. Any legislation that would make it worse for those people would obviously be dreadful, but why would that need be the case?

 

[droid]

Sure, its sex-slavery, but the actual work involved, I assume is very similar.

Decriminalisation based on the German model would essentially remove what remaining laws are currently in place relating to prostitution and fail to bring in any effective regulatory system, providing a semi-legal cover for these activities making them even more difficult to police, and possibly increase the attractiveness and profit of the business - and presumably the numbers being trafficked and/or coerced.

Im not sure I have faith that government - particularly a Tory government - is capable of implementing good legislation on this.

 

[droid]

I guess I have a suspicion that organised sex workers essentially hold a privileged position, and that decriminalisation whilst benefiting them could be to the detriment of those below them on the food chain.

Sorry for being lazy - but is there proposed legislation from lobby groups? Do they address the issue of trafficking - other than to say it doesn't happen?

 

[UFO over easy]

im not sure I have faith that government - particularly a Tory government - is capable of implementing good legislation on this

That's a fair concern, I share that.

But I don't think it's fair at all to place forced labour next to sex work in a 'food chain'.

 

[droid]

Sorry, poor choice of words, but you essentially have two categories of people doing more or less the same work, one of their free will, and one against their will, so I think the principle stands.

 

[Mr. Tea]

There must be some reasonable numbers somewhere - the ILO seem reputable.

The EU claims 30,000 registered victims over 3 years , 69% victim of sexual exploitation, which makes about 22,000 (presumably the real numbers are much higher), but those figures alone seem unacceptably high.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29660126

Nice turn of phrase - reminds me of Pope Vows To Get Church Pedophilia Down To Acceptable Levels.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Decriminalisation based on the German model...

Assuming we're still talking about the UK here (given that this thread was spun off from the Corbyn one), I pointed out some time ago that some hypothetical future UK government that wanted to change the law on prostitution would be no means be logically bound to copy the German model to the letter. Indeed, to the extent that German laws haven't protected (some) prostitutes there, we could learn from their mistakes.