prostitution

[Benny Bunter]

Im trying to prompt you to examine your own beliefs, as it seems from the outside that they have led you to completely dismiss the explicitly expressed wishes of a reasonably large number of women who have direct firsthand experience of the prostitution - arguably a manifestation of the patriarchy you yourself oppose.

.

i have at no point said that all prostitutes voices should not be heard in the debate, and certainly do not 'dismiss' them. I did say that we should not listen to ONLY them, to the exclusion of EVERYONE ELSE as Ben UFO seems to advocate ("listen to sex workers and shut up")

 

[droid]

lol indeed:

A study at Yale–New Haven Hospital trains capuchin monkeys to use silver discs as money in order to study their economic behavior. The discs could be exchanged by the monkeys for various treats. During one chaotic incident, a researcher observed what appeared to be a monkey exchanging a disc for sex. The monkey that was paid for sex immediately traded the silver disc for a grape. The researcher took steps to prevent any possibility of coins being traded for sex after his suspicions were aroused

I wonder if there's been any research on dolphins. If any species has independently developed prostitution it'll be those fuckers. Not sure I can search for 'dolphin prostitution' in work though...

 

[sadmanbarty]

I wonder if there's been any research on dolphins. If any species has independently developed prostitution it'll be those fuckers. Not sure I can search for 'dolphin prostitution' in work though...

Especially if you work at an aquarium

 

[Benny Bunter]

I wonder if there's been any research on dolphins. If any species has independently developed prostitution it'll be those fuckers. Not sure I can search for 'dolphin prostitution' in work though...

lol

and on that note, i've got to bow out for now. have a good day chaps and keep asking those important questions

 

[droid]

i have at no point said that all prostitutes voices should not be heard in the debate, and certainly do not 'dismiss' them. I did say that we should not listen to ONLY them, to the exclusion of EVERYONE ELSE as Ben UFO seems to advocate ("listen to sex workers and shut up")

Ben has qualified his statement and acknowledged his rudeness to be fair.

Here's where Im coming from. I came into feminism in my teens via the likes of Dworkin, Sheila Jeffreys, MacKinnon, Woolf. My default stance on prostitution would probably have been not too different from your own and I would have supported the Swedish model, more or less. In recent years Ive seen a large upsurge in women calling for decriminalisation and legalisation and I figure that I wouldn't be much of a feminist if I didnt listen to what these women are saying.

It seems to me that you are not giving their arguments fair shrift because you instinctively feel that there is something morally wrong in the very act of prostitution. Nothing wrong with that, but I would suggest that basing policy purely on subjective moral principles is a) A very slippery slope and b) That we should judge the morality of a social policy, not necessarily by the behaviour it engenders, but by its outcomes.

 

[droid]

Especially if you work at an aquarium

lol. There's a documentary somewhere about a dolphin keeper who had a 20 year affair with one of her... charges? captives?

 

[vimothy]

I don't want to take things off topic

That's fine by me, but in practice you can't avoid "subjective moral principles" -- everyone on this thread has made repeated appeals to them. (For example, why should outcome X be favoured over outcome Y?)

 

[droid]

Sure, and I should be more adroit with my use of qualifiers, but I hope we can take it as a given that there is more of a consensus that rape/enslavement is harmful than there is that prostitution in of itself is harmful? Utilitarianism basically - though I would also acknowledge the problems there.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I wonder if there's been any research on dolphins. If any species has independently developed prostitution it'll be those fuckers. Not sure I can search for 'dolphin prostitution' in work though...

Dunno about dolphins but penguins definitely do it.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Right, so its bad if the women involved are 'visibly bruised teenagers', whereas a seemingly cheerful & healthy migrant in her 20's whose family has been threatened and is forced to give up 90% of her income if she ever wants to see her passport again is OK?

I'd have thought you'd been arguing about stuff on the internet for long enough not to use such a cheesy old line as "Oh, so you think [X] is OK, do you?" (to which the answer is, invariably, "No of course I bloody don't").

As I said, I wasn't there, so I don't know. That doesn't automatically mean it was very worst possible scenario you can imagine.

Has anyone given any thought to the suggestion I made a couple of posts ago about tackling the trafficking problem by restricting prostitution to people who are either native citizens or immigrants who've been domiciled here for some period of years? I don't know if

Isnt a main pillar of the argument for decriminalisation that exploitation and abuse is much more likely under the current conditions?

I'm not sure I get you - prostitution is already decriminalized in the UK, in fact it's fully legal. The VICE link I posted above quotes prostitutes who are arguing against the introduction of a Scandinavian-style law that would criminalize prostitute's customers.

What remains illegal is pimping (a good thing in itself, although I can only assume the enforcement of this law is woefully inadequate) and other activities such as 'running a brothel' (i.e. two or more prostitutes working in the same premises), which I think is probably counterproductive.

 

[droid]

I'd have thought you'd been arguing about stuff on the internet for long enough not to use such a cheesy old line as "Oh, so you think [X] is OK, do you?" (to which the answer is, invariably, "No of course I bloody don't").

Im glad you picked up on this, though I am somewhat stunned by the irony. This was a minor tribute to you, as (though you seem oblivious) this is one of your standard rhetorical devices.

As I said, I wasn't there, so I don't know. That doesn't automatically mean it was very worst possible scenario you can imagine.

Yes, but it may well have been, and given the legal situation in the UK there is a strong possibility that the women your friends bought sex from were coerced in some way, and sex with coercion invalidates implied consent, which means... ...Ill let you fill in the blanks.

I'm not sure I get you - prostitution is already decriminalized in the UK, in fact it's fully legal. The VICE link I posted above quotes prostitutes who are arguing against the introduction of a Scandinavian-style law that would criminalize prostitute's customers.

What remains illegal is pimping (a good thing in itself, although I can only assume the enforcement of this law is woefully inadequate) and other activities such as 'running a brothel' (i.e. two or more prostitutes working in the same premises), which I think is probably counterproductive.

In an attempt to clarify Benny's position, I posted a list of definitions of positions on page 5 which you must have missed, the UK is abolitionist, Sweden is neo-abolitionist, Nevada is prohibitionist, New Zealand is decriminalised, Holland is legalised.

They seem useful, so they are the definitions Im using

 

[UFO over easy]

That’s why I look to the feminists for guidance, to those who are talking about gender and patriarchy, and certainly do not exclusively limit myself to what the prostitutes themselves have to say (who in any case are not, and can never be, represented by the tiny percentage of prostitutes who have organized into alliances like the NWSP).

This is a huge distortion of your actual position. Sex work is one of the most contentious areas within contemporary feminism, and what you have actually done is seek out the subset of feminists who will confirm your existing prejudice - feminists who are mostly older, middle class, white, from Western Europe and the US, who systematically exclude the voices of sex workers from academic debate (hence their no platforming on student campus' - 'you exclude us we'll exclude you'), who base their research on casual 'observations' (that Farley piece you linked to upthread) as opposed to the many independent studies and research projects from around the world that exist in this area.

You prioritise these voices over other feminist groups which are younger, more diverse in every way and who are more engaged with sex workers. These groups all discuss capitalism and patriarchy and how the two intersect with other causes extensively. You also prioritise these particular feminist voices, who satisfy your own ideas around what feminism should look like, over current sex worker activist groups, and over Amnesty International and the UN who as we discussed have conducted research over a number of years which informs their recommendations for decriminalization.

 

[UFO over easy]

Yes, but it may well have been, and given the legal situation in the UK there is a strong possibility that the women your friends bought sex from were coerced in some way, and sex with coercion invalidates implied consent, which means... ...Ill let you fill in the blanks.

I'm not sure this is true. A huge amount of sex work in the UK is conducted through Internet sites now through which sex workers advertise and screen their clients - who are essentially ranked/reviewed, with any problems or difficulties flagged up. People can choose not to accept clients who don't satisfy certain feedback criteria or who don't have enough feedback. The Swedish model (criminalisation of clients) makes this system impossible, as clients would not be willing to register for such a service, making screening much more difficult. The obvious response to policies like this which affect safety are for sex workers to work together in groups - but unfortunately as Tea has mentioned, a group of two or more sex workers now legally constitutes 'brothel keeping' and is also illegal.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Can you please explain how subscribing to a brand of feminism that informs and is in agreement with my views is a 'distortion of my actual position'. Of course im aware that the issue is contentious within feminism itself. Im inclined to think feminists who support decriminalisation are mistaken. Not sure what else to say to you about that really

 

[UFO over easy]

You implied that your position is 'the feminist' position - 'that's why I look to the feminists for guidance' - and that this position is the one concerned with 'gender and patriarchy', which is something all feminists are concerned with.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Im glad you picked up on this, though I am somewhat stunned by the irony. This was a minor tribute to you, as (though you seem oblivious) this is one of your standard rhetorical devices.

Haha, touché. I'm sure most of us have done it at some point, to be fair.

Yes, but it may well have been, and given the legal situation in the UK...

Actually one of the guys I'm thinking of told me about a time he visited a (legal, obviously) brothel in Germany during the World Cup.

A crime definitely took place, however - he left his wallet unattended and she robbed him blind, lol.

In an attempt to clarify Benny's position, I posted a list of definitions of positions on page 5 which you must have missed, the UK is abolitionist, Sweden is neo-abolitionist, Nevada is prohibitionist, New Zealand is decriminalised, Holland is legalised.

They seem useful, so they are the definitions Im using

OK, yes, I did miss that post and yes they seem useful.

 

[Benny Bunter]

You implied that your position was 'the feminist' position - 'that's why I look to the feminists for guidance'.

Didnt imply anything. I assumed that everyone would know about the type of feminism i subscribe to from what id previously written.
You can go on about the age and ethnic background of the feminists i support-i dont care. Its the arguments the consistency and the reasoning that interests me

 

[UFO over easy]

Your arguments and the consistency of the reasoning you've cited have been interrogated pretty thoroughly at every turn and you've failed to provide counter arguments every time, instead preferring to moralise or make grandiose and offensive remarks about slavery.

 

[Benny Bunter]

For everyone badgering me to expand and clarify my position: just slap me silly and call me Meghan Murphy.



http://groknation.com/women/to-create-gender-equality-fight-prostitution/

Just in you case u missed it ben. This explains my position as concisely and clearly as i could imagine.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Hardly think i can be accused of not providing counter arguments though