Whats the difference between

[DannyL]

I think there might be a point in there about bourgeois morality and manners being repressive.

But obviously that doesn't have to mean a total rejection of civility - even it if sounds weally wadical.

In any case, being a shouty cunt is also a bulwark of kapitalism.

I ofen read these things in terms of the emotional tone being expressed (kinda derived from Reich). If someone is ceaselessly shouty and aggro, and can't show any "give" or compassion, then I'm not that interested. I think this kind of thing is incredibly under-rated and overlooked. A bit like the "covert reasons" Eden mentions for involving oneself in activism above

 

[Mr. Tea]

I wish someone would've told me that the point wasn't actually to, yunno, protest the policies of the WTO or whatever, but to make us all feel good about ourselves.

The one that really gets me is the classic anti-war "Not in my name", which to me sounds a bit too much like "Go bomb the fuck out out of whoever you like as long as there's no stain on my impeccable liberal conscience". I dunno, am I reading too much into it? Almost certainly.

But anyway, this thread made me look back at the Anarchism thread, where most of the posters (and no offence to anyone intended) were like "Well I read some Bakunin..." and "...is Kropotkin good?", and then padraig started talking about all these things he'd been involved in, local community schemes and work with in Mexico, and (without wanting to sound like a suck-up) I have a really massive respect for that. (Edit: that thread also had some top notch comedy relief courtesy of mistadubalina; I urge anyone who hasn't read it to have at least a quick flick through his posts and the response to them.)

I know other people on here have been do-ers too as well as readers and talkers too.

 

[massrock]

yeh, temporary autonomous zone, blah blah blah, spare me. I wish someone would've told me that the point wasn't actually to, yunno, protest the policies of the WTO or whatever, but to make us all feel good about ourselves.

You should have worked that one out. The WTO or your government or whoever are not generally that affected by a few protests, but it is still sustaining for people to be able to come together and affirm what they share by way of concerns and desires and commitments, especially in the face of a culture of insecurity and atomisation. Normal people as well, not just 'professional' activists.

maybe I'm just a sad auld jaded bastard.

More like an adolescent snob who's so over those 'childish' things.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

You should have worked that one out.

but the point is to protest actual, concrete things. otherwise it's not worth doing. who are you reclaiming the streets from, exactly? and who are you reclaiming them for? how are they yours to reclaim in the first place? "affirming what they share..." - don't make me laugh, half the dudes are just there trying to pull chicks for crissakes (macktivists, as they say). that stuff kills me - oh yeah we're not here to actually do anything, just feel good about ourselves. symbolism is a waste of time, truly, unless it's grounded in something real.

now, am I saying that every protest against anything ever was a stupid waste of time? no, clearly not.

More like an adolescent snob who's so over those 'childish' things.

like water off a duck's back, bro. you're right though, I am over that stuff. I'm moved on to things that I can see having an effect with my own 2 eyes. and that don't require me to deal with the reams of subcultural nonsense.

anyway, I'm not stopping you or anyone else from fighting the "culture of atomization" as you put it so if that's your fancy then hop to it & more power to you.

 

[vimothy]

Apropos protest movement, this looks interesting:

 

[massrock]

but the point is to protest actual, concrete things.

Well yeah, but not only or always. Sometimes there's an instinctive reaching, sometimes it's art. Different contexts as well, I'm sorry your experience seems to have been so unremittingly tawdry.

The road protests were/are about defined environmental and social issues but an awful lot more emerged from that.

I wasn't at Twyford Down or Newbury but friends were. Naturally I was behind the actions but I had my questions about the complexities and whether they knew exactly what they were doing or why, which they didn't, not entirely. For good or bad it did feel to an extent like something I wasn't very well placed to understand properly; I didn't live in those places, I didn't know why they were so interested or where they were getting their information from. But it wasn't about ideology or even strategy at that point.

In some ways of course these may be said have 'failed' but in my experience things like the Claremont Road protest (...spontaneous community, urban experiment, social support system, living art project, training ground, big ole party...), and the early London Reclaim The Streets parties (and yes, less visibly branded gatherings) continue to be inspiring and energising. Thousands of people attended and caught a view of something, even lived it for a time, right there in the city.

Reclaim the streets was initially about critiquing the privilege of motor vehicles and through-ways in city centres and assumptions about the way public space can be used. Reclaiming the streets for people and communities from noisy, polluting, dangerous levels of traffic. And the 'revolution of everyday' life, I won't denigrate the importance of that, of saying we can party here today if we want to. Ooh, a little inconvenience? (oh spare me the situationism, lol).

 

[massrock]

The fact that disobedience makes people horny, despite the appalling levels of personal hygiene often involved, I don't know, I take that as a good sign.

 

[massrock]

That does all sound a bit historical, I don't mean to mythologise anything, far from it. What I mean to say is, I might have moved on from certain things as well but that doesn't mean I can't see their value for others. Rites de passage, etc. etc.

 

[john eden]

That does all sound a bit historical, I don't mean to mythologise anything, far from it. What I mean to say is, I might have moved on from certain things as well but that doesn't mean I can't see their value for others. Rites de passage, etc. etc.

I think it's also encumbent on people to have a historical overview though - certainly I benefitted from talking to people who had been through things before me when I was a youngster.

And it seems pretty clear that most protests against the g20 are a charade compared to things like the protests against the poll tax and even the big anti-war march.

Reclaim the streets I have a bit more time for but its tactics were contained pretty quickly - kettling, which has been a staple for these things ever since Mayday 2000.

There are numerous critiques of activism floating around - the idea that the most important thing is to be "doing something", especially if it brings people together and makes them feel good.

As padraig has said - there is nothing wrong with this if you just want to call it a rite of passage like passing your driving licence or losing your virginity or taking hallucinogens.

There isn't anything wrong with having a party, but it is a bit weird if that is the main legacy of the anti-capitalist movement.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I'm sorry your experience seems to have been so unremittingly tawdry

do me the favor of not referring to "my experience", as you don't know the first goddamn thing about it. thanks.

"thousands of people caught a view of something"...yeah & that's just the problem. there's nothing there but smoke. 99% of that stuff don't mean nothing when push comes to shove. tell me man, what does that "view of something" do pay medical bills, look after children, deal with peoples' legal problems, psychiatric problems? does it even address any of the problems it's supposed to be critiquing? does it do anything for anyone besides provide a bunch of kids with an excuse to have a party? & look if that's what you want to do, again, fantastic, but let's not pretend it's anything earth-shattering and revelatory.

"the revolution of everyday life" is one those phrases that sounds nice & means nothing. a Situ speciality (see also; "be reasonable, demand the impossible", "beneath the pavement, the beach", etc) tho not unique to them. if you won't denigrate it, I certainly will. that attitude is ridiculous, fiddling while Rome burns, let's have a party! it's kind of creepy the way failures like Paris '68 (the Spanish Civil War is another one) get fetishized. I think a lot of times 1st world radicals would rather lose nobly, or worse have a good time losing, than win; I guess it makes sense, cos they generally don't have very high stakes in the game, relatively speaking.

I know the purpose of RTS & Critical Mass & all that. you didn't answer my questions. what gives you the right to reclaim anything from anyone? for "people & communities"? says you. what people? what communities? "assumptions about the way public space can be used" is another meaningless phrase, it's so vague & broad. whose assumptions? yours, I guess.

 

[massrock]

And it seems pretty clear that most protests against the g20 are a charade compared to things like the protests against the poll tax and even the big anti-war march.

In the same way that wonky and funky are a charade compared to things like jungle and ukg?

Recuperation and commodification isn't it. But the poll tax and the Iraq war are much more straightforward things to get a grip on than whatever the G-20 are up to.

There are numerous critiques of activism floating around - the idea that the most important thing is to be "doing something", especially if it brings people together and makes them feel good.

It's easy enough to see pitfalls and drawbacks. Even something like the perception of having balanced news coverage can apparently allow people to feel as if things are being taken care of. The dangers of 'liberalism' again?

As padraig has said - there is nothing wrong with this if you just want to call it a rite of passage like passing your driving licence or losing your virginity or taking hallucinogens.

It's not like everybody should be doing or thinking the same things at the same time.

There isn't anything wrong with having a party, but it is a bit weird if that is the main legacy of the anti-capitalist movement.

I think everyone is waiting for K-Punk's book to come out so they can find out what anti-capitalism even means.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

The fact that disobedience makes people horny, despite the appalling levels of personal hygiene often involved, I don't know, I take that as a good sign.

you'll excuse me if I don't find skeezy creeps trying to use the heady emotions demos bring up to worm their way into women's pants to be a good sign of anything.

 

[john eden]

what gives you the right to reclaim anything from anyone? for "people & communities"? says you. what people? what communities? "assumptions about the way public space can be used" is another meaningless phrase, it's so vague & broad. whose assumptions? yours, I guess.

The RTS at Tottenham (same day as the Brixton one which I was at) was criticised explicitly for not making any links to local struggles and basically being a bunch of people from outside the area having a party there - messing the place up and even pissing in residents' front gardens.

This ties in with my recent comments about social centres: http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2009/09/hackney-council-vs-banksy/

everybody knows it can be hard work relating to people outside of a subculture. It is good that some people do recognise its importance, but pretending you are doing it when you are not (or actually, deluding yourself that you are) is the worse sort of narcissism.

 

[john eden]

In the same way that wonky and funky are a charade compared to things like jungle and ukg?

Recuperation and commodification isn't it. But the poll tax and the Iraq war are much more straightforward things to get a grip on than whatever the G-20 are up to.

It isn't just old men having a go at young people - a bit of perspective does show you that things ebb and flow.

Objectively the 80s was a time when people actually made the UK ruling class shit their pants. Perhaps the high point of this was the huge resistance to the poll tax.

From what I know the period after the 2nd world war was also pretty good, as were the mid 70s.

The anti- war movement had the potential to kick off (and it certainly put the pressure on).

What we have now is a damp squib in comparision, but I am sure if I looked hard enough I could find some internet ranting from a 1st year university student suggesting that the G20 stuff this year and the death of Ian Tomlinson and the furore about kettling, and the climate camp are all proof that things are about to escalate into some kind of pre-revolutionary situation.

It's not like everybody should be doing or thinking the same things at the same time.

Live and let live maaaaaaaaaan?

Well maybe let us be bitter and twisted critics, then...

 

[john eden]

But the poll tax and the Iraq war are much more straightforward things to get a grip on than whatever the G-20 are up to.

This is a central point really.

I think you need the right tools for the job.

 

[matt b]

The RTS at Tottenham (same day as the Brixton one which I was at) was criticised explicitly for not making any links to local struggles and basically being a bunch of people from outside the area having a party there - messing the place up and even pissing in residents' front gardens.

I've had arguments with RTS members over their policy of 'reclaiming' streets on a friday afternoon, thus pissing off everyone who wanted to go home and reclaim their lives, rather than on a monday morning when their employers would be pissed.

 

[john eden]

I've had arguments with RTS members over their policy of 'reclaiming' streets on a friday afternoon, thus pissing off everyone who wanted to go home and reclaim their lives, rather than on a monday morning when their employers would be pissed.

but Matt, surely they are consumer zombies who need to be shocked out of their capitalist stupor and shown that it is possible to live life in another way, involving juggling, swearing at the old bill and fierce techno?

Anyway, there is no way you would get a reasonable turn out for an RTS event on a Monday morning, everyone's still in bed aren't they?

 

[matt b]

but Matt, surely they are consumer zombies who need to be shocked out of their capitalist stupor and shown that it is possible to live life in another way, involving juggling, swearing at the old bill and fierce techno?

tru dat.

 

[massrock]

I know the purpose of RTS & Critical Mass & all that. you didn't answer my questions. what gives you the right to reclaim anything from anyone? for "people & communities"? says you. what people? what communities? "assumptions about the way public space can be used" is another meaningless phrase, it's so vague & broad. whose assumptions? yours, I guess.

The thing about RTS style actions for me personally is that was then (mid 90s), it had it's moment and it's context and it felt important and relevant at the time.

These were things that happened in my town though, not someone else's. What community? A very good question and a big part of the reason. Crowded cities divided by cars, environments blighted by unnecessary road schemes. By nature of simply seeing that and agreeing a number of people decide to do something about it, take an executive decision. I mean it's only for a few hours, and it is essentially symbolic, but blimey what a transformation, how different it could be if more streets were pedestrianised. I can see how this is probably very different in an American context than in London. But in any city environment is hugely important. Architecture, road layouts, etc. are so key in fostering ways of life. I mean that should be obvious but sometimes a little intervention, a dramatic but peaceful gesture is felt to be needed as a reminder. These are our streets, these are our communities and cities.

I should say though that Claremont Road and semi-permanent spaces like Cooltan were more important than the RTS events for me. But they were all kind of a piece as people were finding their way with these things at the time.

 

[matt b]

These were things that happened in my town though, not someone else's. What community? A very good question and a big part of the reason. Crowded cities divided by cars, environments blighted by unnecessary road schemes. By nature of simply seeing that and agreeing a number of people decide to do something about it, take an executive decision. I mean it's only for a few hours <snip>

That's the whole point- it was only for a few hours and didn't work.

A few people piss off a lot of people, rather than engaging with them (just because you are in a car, does not mean that you are loving it), or setting up practical traffic calming/car free areas within the local communities they are part of.

I'm glad you found it useful in some way, but it was no more productive than crying and wanking