john eden

male pale and stale
That's the whole point- it was only for a few hours and didn't work.

A few people piss off a lot of people, rather than engaging with them (just because you are in a car, does not mean that you are loving it), or setting up practical traffic calming/car free areas within the local communities they are part of.

What is striking to me is how completely different the process is to get something permanent and widespread operating.

Round my way there are annual street parties and various people campaiging to make roads one way. We had a bash on our common a few weekends back and various other people I know are involved with park user's groups, campaigins to stop pubs being turned into flats and all sorts of other things.

All of this has to be done completely openly, with full support of a broad cross section of people. There has to be accountability and long term relationships have to be established across a defined geographical area.

Also, I used to worry a lot more about social atomisation in my twenties - probably precisely because I was tied into subcultural stuff rather than wider society.

These days I know all sort of people round where I live - neighbours, people from my kids school, people I've bumped into on the street a few times, people who work in shops.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
Round my way there are annual street parties and various people campaiging to make roads one way. We had a bash on our common a few weekends back and various other people I know are involved with park user's groups, campaigins to stop pubs being turned into flats and all sorts of other things.

All of this has to be done completely openly, with full support of a broad cross section of people. There has to be accountability and long term relationships have to be established across a defined geographical area.

ugh, that's so boring, you square.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
yes I have to say that opportunities for it all "kicking off", doing graff, or taking pills are sadly absent from the equation.


John, it's Friday, you've got me number, let me show you a good time. We'll tick all of those boxes.
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
Hmmm, things seem to spin off on a tangent since I mentioned direct action. I prob didn't explain things very well and certainly didn't mean to dismiss the whole thing out of hand.
The main reason I brought it up was just that it occured to me in passing that there might be more to the 'political refusal of politenes' or whatever we want to call it than just how you conduct yourself in conversation, spoken or written. I suppose I was trying to see k-punk's ideas in a sympathetic light, trying to find some application of them that might be more productive than what he himself appears to practice.
(To be fair, I don't know a great deal about what he does when he's not blogging or writing books. He might be involved in all sorts of practical political things, though part of me kind of doubts it. I do know that he attempted for a time to implement some of his ideas through his college teaching, but if I understand his recent blog entrys correctly then he has given this up because of frustration at the wider structure of academia and further education. That's obviously a shame in may ways, though I can understand where he's coming from, similar feeling were part of the reason why I never attempted to go into teaching after graduating).
But yeah, public protests... I am aware that a vast range of different things could fall under that (very vague) rubric, that they can generate some productive outcomes, and that they can have many valid aims that go beyond some dream of instant revolution/riot/meltdown of the city/whatever (which I'm not sure if I support, anyway). Simply gaining publicity for your cause by showing your presence can be a legitimate aim. Temporarily disrupting an activity you are opposed to can also be worthwhile, in that it can show the powers that be the depth of your opposition, and perhaps give them a bit of a scare, even if you know there's no real prospect of making the disruption permanent. And of course beyond this, there's the way that large public protests can bring people and groups together who may have similar beliefs but not previously had contact or been aware of their solidarity.
However, despite all this, part of me is a bit cynical and despondent about the way 'the public protest' seems to have become ritualised, become a spectacle where every group involved knows their role and plays up to it. The protestors get to meet up, have a bit of a party/sing-along, know that they're likely to get messed about by the police in a way that gives them a feeling of validation in their efforts, but also with the knowledge of their being a limit to the level of risk and danger they'll have to expect. The police know that they can contain the protestors easily, and get the opportunity to trample right over people's ordinary civil liberties, as long as they hold back from any proper physical stuff that might land them in prosecutions or bad publicity. I suppose in this regard the G20 was a bit of a surprise in that the police 'went too far', inflicted more actual damage than would be usual these days, at least when there's cameras present...
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
yes I have to say that opportunities for it all "kicking off", doing graff, or taking pills are sadly absent from the equation.

and the shagging, don't forget the shagging.





k-punk would really despair of this thread rot.
 

massrock

Well-known member
That's the whole point- it was only for a few hours and didn't work.
Well as I say, that was then. It might have been naive and idealistic but again I don't think anyone expected it to 'work' in any other way. I certainly didn't, I mean I went along because I was interested in seeing what people were trying to do, was well aware of the contradictions and the jugglers. The M41 party was fun though. But I think you'd have to slot it into a wider network of cause and effect to see how it did work as a step towards other things for participants. Even if it was a bit silly.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
(To be fair, I don't know a great deal about what he does when he's not blogging or writing books. He might be involved in all sorts of practical political things, though part of me kind of doubts it. I do know that he attempted for a time to implement some of his ideas through his college teaching, but if I understand his recent blog entrys correctly then he has given this up because of frustration at the wider structure of academia and further education

Was dep. editor at the Wire until recently, I think.

I doubt his poor FE students were overly happy being at the receiving end of his political experiments ;)
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Personally, I like a lot of the Hakim Bey derieved critques which encourage you look for creative opportunities in your relationships with others - I like the emphasis on creativity and everyday interactions, rather than fantasising about the revolution though, I recognise it's not the same as the pragamtic work that Jon is talking about though.

I wouldn't want to throw this perspective out of politcs, why can't you have both? As Jon points out the mass mobilisations of the early rave scene made the powers that be shit themselves.
 
Last edited:

DannyL

Wild Horses
Was dep. editor at the Wire until recently, I think.

I doubt his poor FE students were overly happy being at the receiving end of his political experiments ;)

Can anyone link to anything where he talks about this? I have the impression (perhaps entirely wrong) that he was massively "disappointed" by his students - if this is true, he's doing something wrong. I tend to find them pretty inspiring but I'm not trying to project my political programme onto them.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Crowded cities divided by cars, environments blighted by unnecessary road schemes...what a transformation, how different it could be if more streets were pedestrianised. I can see how this is probably very different in an American context than in London. But in any city environment is hugely important. Architecture, road layouts, etc.

you don't need to tell me. I've been a riding a bike day in & day out for the last 10+ years - it is, if anything, much worse in most American cities than it is London. the issue isn't whether the critique is valid or not, but whether or not the tactics & general mindset are effective in any way. which, clearly they aren't, but whatever. at least everyone caught a glimpse of your alternate reality before it got paved over.

I've been to exactly one effective RTS-type thing. it was in 2003, a Critical Mass on the morning of the day after the Iraq War kicked off, in a large city on the eastern seaboard. there was actually a surprising amount of support, b/c there was a clear goal & it got a point across. then in typical clueless fashion a bunch of people decided to do it every day - lasted abt a week, in which they managed to totally squander the impact of the original effort & piss commuters off to no end. didn't stop the war either, but you probably know that.

These are our streets, these are our communities and cities.

this is the kind of attitude - willfully self-deluded is maybe the best way to describe it - that I'm getting after. who is the "us" in "our"? I'm always skeptical about things like that, esp. when it leads to aforementioned white, middle-class activists (making no assumptions about you personally, as I've no idea) claiming to speak for some undefined "our". something is ours if I know you, we have some kind of connection, not b/c we have a supposed "community" as decided by you. community may be the most-abused words of the millennium.

that executive decision line is pants, btw. what it boils down to is that you (or your activist mates, or whoever) know better, know what's good for people even if they don't.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Personally, I like a lot of the Hakim Bey derieved critques which encourage you look for creative opportunities in your relationships with others - I like the emphasis on creativity and everyday interactions, rather than fantasising about the revolution though, I recognise it's not the same as the pragamtic work that Jon is talking about though.

I find it hard to get past all the paedo shit with Bey and I don't like the secret society stuff either.

But leaving that to one side there is something worthwhile in the immediatist stuff about potlatches and exchanging things which you have made yourself. I think this and trying to be creative in every day life, crossed with general solidarity with people is actually very important in the things I do...

Sharing produce from allotments/gardens and organising creative spaces for kids, perhaps.

Of course the main way Bey is consumed is to organise a rave in a squat and neck loads of ketamine. You can then call this a Temporary Autonomous Zone.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
True dat. But you can't blame him for that (oh, alright you can a bit maybe).

Everything is of it's time and I remember how exciting the rave scene seemed back in the late 80s - an explosion of potential - the TAZ idea seemed to chime with this. You could say the the padeophile undertones I guess - references other trends in radical culture - the "Kids Lib" stuff which happened in the 70s. I remember the Anarchist press being full of furious letters about this.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Round my way there are annual street parties and various people campaiging to make roads one way. We had a bash on our common a few weekends back and various other people I know are involved with park user's groups, campaigins to stop pubs being turned into flats and all sorts of other things.

All of this has to be done completely openly, with full support of a broad cross section of people. There has to be accountability and long term relationships have to be established across a defined geographical area.

...Also, I used to worry a lot more about social atomisation in my twenties - probably precisely because I was tied into subcultural stuff rather than wider society.

not too much to add to this, it's all dead on (only I'm still in my 20s, I'm not one of you pot-smoking dads yet! though I'm quite looking forward to senility & all that;))

and it really doesn't take a tremendous effort to break out of the subcultural ghetto. I promise.
 

massrock

Well-known member
Simply gaining publicity for your cause by showing your presence can be a legitimate aim. Temporarily disrupting an activity you are opposed to can also be worthwhile, in that it can show the powers that be the depth of your opposition, and perhaps give them a bit of a scare, even if you know there's no real prospect of making the disruption permanent. And of course beyond this, there's the way that large public protests can bring people and groups together who may have similar beliefs but not previously had contact or been aware of their solidarity.
Thanks for saying this better than I did.
However, despite all this, part of me is a bit cynical and despondent about the way 'the public protest' seems to have become ritualised, become a spectacle where every group involved knows their role and plays up to it.
Actually I think it was the sense of this starting to congeal in the 90s that was part of what led to people wanting to do odd little unsanctioned protests like reclaim the streets.
I suppose in this regard the G20 was a bit of a surprise in that the police 'went too far', inflicted more actual damage than would be usual these days, at least when there's cameras present...
Happened during the anti-poll tax demonstrations as well. Bad enough that it lead to criticisms of the Police and by extension a degree of sympathy with the protesters' positions from sections of society that might otherwise not have been too bothered. I mean that's part of what the tactic of confrontation is about isn't it?
 
Last edited:

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
The protestors get to meet up, have a bit of a party/sing-along, know that they're likely to get messed about by the police in a way that gives them a feeling of validation in their efforts, but also with the knowledge of their being a limit to the level of risk and danger they'll have to expect.

tbf, this really depends on where/who. in quite a few places it's not unusual for demonstrations to wind up with people being killed. granted, you're talking specifically about anti-globalization things in wealthy countries where cops etc cannot get away with that stuff, mostly - not forgetting Carlo Giuliani. some people may also remember, from another thread, my old friend who got shot in the face with a tear canister by the Israeli Border Police at a protest against the Wall (speaking of which, theIsraeli govt declared his shooting an "act of war" - an unarmed man at a civilian protest - & so absolved the soldiers responsible. meanwhile, he's been in a coma since March. sorry to get OT but it makes my f**king blood boil)

even getting smacked with a baton, getting gassed, sucks. so does catching felony charges. one of the shittiest things is realizing that once the immediate jail solidarity is over you're pretty much on your own & good luck to you. the focus has moved on down the road to the next demo.

I wouldn't want to throw this perspective out of politcs, why can't you have both? As Jon points out the mass mobilisations of the early rave scene made the powers that be shit themselves.

I don't think the "powers that be" scare that easily.
 
Last edited:

john eden

male pale and stale
Can anyone link to anything where he talks about this? I have the impression (perhaps entirely wrong) that he was massively "disappointed" by his students - if this is true, he's doing something wrong. I tend to find them pretty inspiring but I'm not trying to project my political programme onto them.

there was something on his blog or possibly here where he was talking about a student who insisted on keeping his earphones in during class, even though there wasn't any music coming through them.

I seem to remember he interpreted this as kids having to be connnected to the matrix at all times yadda yadda.

But it now occurs to me that said student was in fact subverting conventional deference to teachers. ;)
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I do know that he attempted for a time to implement some of his ideas through his college teaching"
If that's true it's pretty sinister and just wrong. Though maybe anytime someone imparts knowledge there is some kind of inherent subconscious bias or world view implicit in the process, it still seems much worse to deliberately try to force your ideas on to young people.
Do you have any evidence that he was doing that?
 
Top