Martin Dust
Techno Zen Master
No doubt the racists will think he did well in the bear pit and it's clear that they will get support out of this outside of London.
BNP on Question Time
- Thread starter baboon2004
- Start date
four_five_one
Infinition
There was an axiomatic consensus that immigration is a priori bad. I also note Warsi's freudian slip ('bad' instead of 'far' wasn't it?). Watching the programme confirmed that he shouldn't have been allowed onto it in the first place.
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mixed_biscuits
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So you're not keen on this whole democracy idea, then?
Le Pen gave France a brief scary moment but soon fizzled out. The main parties will take the sting out of Griffin's tail by taking on some aspects of his supporters' concerns and the BNP will then lose their momentum. But this can only happen if there is a period of exposure, so that the boil of disgruntlement can be lanced - making a martyr out of him for his fanclub is not the way (tho' God knows the country has tried!)
mixed_biscuits
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Surely this is the issue though? That the BNP's agenda becomes normalised and a part of mainstream debate.
mixed_biscuits
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Whether you think this or not must depend largely on how pliable you think people are, or perhaps you fear that everybody already agrees with him and just isn't letting on!
The logical conclusion of those in power seeking to make illegal ideas for what they consider to be a sub-optimal reorganisation of society is to make every other view illegal.
Really though, the chances of the BNP establishing a fascist state in the UK must be infinitesimally slim; the EU or the US would step in and quash it if they considered it imminent.
btw I used to argue FOR banning the BNP outright but was argued out of it, so I can see where people are coming from.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
But no-one actually thinks this is going to happen, surely not even Griffin in his wildest dreams. What the BNP could succeed in is doing immense harm to race relations in this country, setting whites and non-whites (esp. Muslims of course) against each other. It could fall very far from establishing a fascist state and yet still achieve this.
Martin Dust
Techno Zen Master
This is exactly my fear, some places are fit to blow already.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
That's such a ridiculous question. Which type of democracy do you mean first of all - choosing between bad and worse every four years and little else? There are different types of democracy, to start with - ours is far from being participatory.
Secondly, do you believe in absolute moral truth or not? If (I know it's not going to happen tomorrow, yadda yadda) 51 per cent of people voted for something appalling, would you then be OK with that?
Thirdly, say that to the non-white people protesting outside the BBC yesterday. I bet they'd be really sympathetic to your 'but what about democracy?' views.
Re Le Pen - he got 10 per cent in the last french election - he's become mainstream. And you know what he identified as one of the key moments of his rise? His appearance on the French version of Question Time.
"The main parties will take the sting out of Griffin's tail by taking on some aspects of his supporters' concerns and the BNP will then lose their momentum." Um, you didn't watch QT, then? Griffin hung himself, no-one else got in any sparkling points.
Plus, the BNP were right on one thing - the programme was orchestrated against Griffin. It wasn't a normal edition of Question Time. So, in the end, the BBC too knew that giving Griffin a free platform to promulgate his views on things other than immigration/race might backfire, by normalising him. But this has been a watershed, and he (or, more scarily, someone far politically superior to him) will probably have that chance in the future now.
"making a martyr out of him for his fanclub is not the way" An oft-repeated point (in various forms) that is an empty aphorism frequently taken for truth. His support will grow quicker with mass exposure. More people may hate him as a result of seeing him on QT, but more people will also love him. His support will have grown.
mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
Let alone the fact that gay guys are already being kicked to death in Trafalgar Square at 10.30 at night.
BBC comments page seems to think last night was a witchhunt against Griffin - which means he comes out as the abused underdog. Perfect PR really.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Sorry, didn't see this post, which puts your views in more context.
I do think people are incredibly weak (and self-interested) and pliable, yes. I think history bears that out stunningly. And have you (I'm sure you have) ever been in a room where someone makes a racist or homophobic comment that everyone else lets pass. I have been in plenty. The UK sets itself up as post-race, and it couldn't be farther from the truth.
Of course the chances are slim of there being a fascist state here, but if Griffin gets to Le Pen status, things will be bad enough.
"the EU or the US would step in and quash it if they considered it imminent." Obama may be president, but quite how this makes the US an indubitable defender of anti-fascist rights I don't know. I agree that they would step in all other things being equal, but i think a rise for fascism in this country would assume similar developments in others, so the situation would be less clear.
Client Eastwood
Well-known member
Politrix aside - Mr Tea on the money with his comment. I find that far more scary at the moment than the potential for the BNP as a political party (at the moment) which I see as going something like this.
Step 1. Try to be media friendly
Step 2. Create social unrest pitting fundies of both sides against each other.
Step 3. Step back
Step 4. BNP say 'See I told you multiculturalism/imigration/islam is a bad idea'
Step 5. Collect votes
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
exactly, totally on point. The idea that we live in some post-prejudice state is ludicrous, the kind of sick illusion the Guardian likes to peddle.
Haven't seen it, but that surprises me, tbh. I thought he really looked like an idiot, but, as above, that this was purely contingent on his not being very good at politics.
Problem is, the other parties were pretty awful, and the question of what the BNP policy of repatriation means in practice was never addressed (tho someone in the audience asked, and Dimbleby, the twat, said that they would come back to it. Never did, unless I missed it..?). So those who say the BNP policieswere laid bare for all to see last night, are not convincing.
Bonnie Greer was funny, if mildly incoherent at times (don't blame her for that, I'm sure she was fuming inside).
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
yep.
Can anyone reprise what the main parties said about immigration. i remember thinking they were all hugely to the right, but can't recall exact quotes.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Hm?
vimothy
yurp
I wasn't going to watch this, but people actually came round for beer and spliffs. It was an event. The whole thing did make me cringe though--it was a bizzare ritual, in the end. Pity, because there could have been some really interesting questions asked. When Griffin was talking about about "British aborigines", I kept wanting someone to ask him how this thing would actually work. Will there be a test? His views are so fantastical--it's all trawling around in the political id, occasionally stumbling into the sunlight hallucinating and mumbling about survival. Nick Griffin should be at home writing bad poetry and listening to prog rock. Don't put him on question time. And if you do, don't make a big deal out of it. Oh well. Was funny, at least.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
Straw and Warsi were actually the best (despite my earlier dog-whistle tag for all three main party members which contained both a grain of truth and exaggeration).
mostly they were arguing w each other, to an extent, about numbers when they got in to that ballpark (and Straw disastrously went on a detour about Powell when he had a chance to make a social democratic defence of immigration in large numbers) but there were a few statements that were unconditionally good that do need recognition. (self-defeating to focus on promising caps and the recognition of an issue in the electorate's eyes, no matter how well-intentioned and elegantly qualified, will have cheered the BNP. if only David Aaronovitch was on the panel.)
one was Warsi correcting Griffin on "bogus" asylum seekers, when she rightly said there is no such thing. she is either the only mainstream British politician i have ever seen make this point, or the only one beside Mark Oaten when he was LD home affairs brief.
the other was something good Straw said when he correctly took the increasingly absurd Frank 'Me and my mate Bunter Soames' Field to task re capping numbers. Warsi at this point was arguing for a cap and Straw made a rather good line about telling people how many babies they could have. the Straw spiel at this point does deserve applauding it must be said. in fact that, Warsi on bogus and Huhne's impassioned response to that cunt at the Mail were the three genuine progressive moments of the night from the elected reps. in context, Straw's baby line was the best thing i've seen on QT since Hitchens attacking Shirley Williams, the dozy twat, re the fatwa.
Griffin's a weird fucker isn't he? Straw's opening bit about war history was nice and then Griffin makes an appalling, irrelevant point about a conscientious objector relative of Straw - that will play well for Griffin that comment, unfortunately.
Greer, as usual, i loved and wanted to ask out for dinner.
as is to be expected, the Express front-page splashes on the disgraceful Griffin today, despite the central and incontestable fact that the Express has done more to enable the BNP than any mainstream British publication.
i am not talking about a sensible Labour voter like Crackerjack (not to single him out) discussing the effects on British infrastructure during the greatest upsurge in population the UK has seen since the post-war - early 60s period, i am talking about the Express and their disgraceful attitudes to economic migrants, to "Muslims" and to asylum seekers.
much damage has been done to community cohesion and empathy in the UK as we all know: riots, the recently slashed figures that the govt expects an asylum seeker to survive on per week, the Kurdish bloke kicked to death by youths in the northeast who were heard to shout derogatory stuff about Islam by witnesses when they were doing it, and so on and so forth.
Griffin will pick up a few more votes - without really troubling the big hitters - and the steady drip-feed will continue.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
can i just add i am glad someone has added the Baroness Phwoarrr-si tag.
tuning in, i kept waiting for a knock from the thought police, i must admit..
tuning in, i kept waiting for a knock from the thought police, i must admit..
matt b
Indexing all opinion
I played the first 20 minutes to a group of students today, because they had missed it (a good start). Their mouths quickly dropped and they all ended up angry and incredulous re: Griffin.
They're not the most liberal types either, which was very heartening.
Earlier in the lesson, they had finally got to grips with cultural hegemony and dominant ideology. Which was nice