zhao

there are no accidents
There's a double bind for the science mainstream with regard to 'mavericks' and cranks like Sheldrake.

Watching that video, it's kind of funny how much like a mirror-image Dawkins Sheldrake is. He starts out by mischaracterizing science in much the same way as Dawkins does religion, they even look and sound remarkably similar.

according to you they both "mischaracterize" the subject of their critique, yet you designate use of the descriptor "crank" solely for Sheldrake, and never for Dawkins.

Good videos, thanks Luka.

what Sheldrake says is pretty much all kosher, no?

the DMT dude really does come off as a BIT of a crackpot at times but of course, i 100% stand by the gist of his message.
(and who ever doesn't is either brainwashed or dead inside)
 
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muser

Well-known member
i think the fact that for his critique of the science world he puts a lack of acceptance of telepathy and molecules having a "consciousness" (whatever he means by that) in his top ten list of dogmas shows he is far from kosher tbh.
 

muser

Well-known member
his sentiments are like catnip for people who have taken too many psychedelics and spend all their time indoors smoking weed and browsing david icke forums.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I have to admit to a soft spot for Terry McKenna, you can read his stuff completely sober and feel your grip on material reality starting to slip away between your fingers. And you have to love anyone who comes up with something called the 'stoned ape hypothesis'.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Watching that video, it's kind of funny how much like a mirror-image Dawkins Sheldrake is. He starts out by mischaracterizing science in much the same way as Dawkins does religion, they even look and sound remarkably similar.

In a nutshell, how does Dawkins mischaracterise religion? I've been too bored by the thought to ever read one of his books, and the sheer mindbending stupidity of his article about honey and airport security makes me realise I was right (not) to do so. However, I would be interested to know in what way he frames religion.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
according to you they both "mischaracterize" the subject of their critique, yet you designate use of the descriptor "crank" solely for Sheldrake, and never for Dawkins.

That's because Dawkins is not a crank per se - his problem is that of using objective facts (and ignoring others) to push an agenda based on his personal biases, rather than (as Sheldrake does) blatantly making stuff up. When Dawkins reels off a list of atrocities committed by the ancient Israelites in the name of Yahweh or a list of utterly inane 'transgressions' for which the Book of Leviticus demands the death penalty, he's just quoting what's there in black and white for anyone to read. Likewise, he's correct to point out that the development of Muslim countries is being held back by a widespread suspicion of and hostility to science, with the result that they invest in science research and teaching just a tiny fraction of that spent by non-Muslim countries. (The same point is made by Jim al-Khalili, who is an atheist but clearly not an Islamophobe.) At the same time, while he has grudgingly admits that amazing scientific achievements were made in the Muslim world in the middle ages, he fails to see or refuses to see that someone writing in the 12th century could just as well use this to argue that European culture is inherently 'backwards' compared to Islamic/Arabic-Persian culture, which at the time was true.

I think where RD goes wrong is in his insistence that religion is the root of all evil, because he's confusing cause and effect. Terry Pratchett gets it right, I think, when he says religion doesn't make people act like arseholes to each other; rather, it gives people an excuse to be arseholes, but the latent arseholeish tendency is there already. You only have to look at the history of the USSR or Cambodia for examples of indescribably monstrous regimes that were not merely secular in the way most modern liberal democracies are, but in which religion was officially suppressed and believers brutally persecuted. And while it could be argued that the personality cult that tends to form around the leaders of totalitarian regimes is a form of secular religion in itself, it nonetheless gives the lie to the idea that belief in an imaginary being is a prerequisite for human evil.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Terry Pratchett gets it right, I think, when he says religion doesn't make people act like arseholes to each other; rather, it gives people an excuse to be arseholes, but the latent arseholeish tendency is there already. .

Clearly Pratchett is capable of using his brain - the conception that the 'Muslim world' is full of religious maniacs rather than, exactly as in the West, a fair few people bent on achieving power by the most efficacious means possible, well....it's exactly like taking David Cameron at face value when he wanks on about 'democracy' and 'freedoms' (which, if we want to characterise it like this, could be seen as the 'religion' of the west, or at least precepts that do not bear any public interrogation).
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Clearly Pratchett is capable of using his brain - the conception that the 'Muslim world' is full of religious maniacs rather than, exactly as in the West, a fair few people bent on achieving power by the most efficacious means possible, well...

The big asymmetry of course is that many Muslim countries have an explicitly religious basis for their legal systems, which is in general not the case for Christian countries. (Meaning countries where the majority of the population is, or historically has been, Christian - clearly there are no 'Christian' states in the sense that Iran is an Islamic state, unless you include the Vatican, I guess.)

Russia is an interesting case where the church is making a big comeback as a real social force with legal backing and is being used as a power accessory by a state-capitalist/verging-on-fascist regime. Then there's the Tea Party tendency in the USA who want to turn their country into basically a Christian version of Iran or Saudi Arabia, but thankfully haven't (yet) succeeded, although concessions made to them especially the state level are already very worrying.

Edit: and yes, Terry P may not write the kind books that get discussed in long threads on Dissensus but he knows a thing or two about human beings, that's for sure.
 

luka

Well-known member
i love mckenna. im an acolyte. i think at root the psychedelic experience is a religious experience and like any religious experience it is transformative. you will never be the same again. it is impossible to be a materialist again.
 
Materialism's all well and good until you encounter a single immaterial thing, like waking up in the morning and opening your eyes. What type of matter is that again?

In other words, get back to us when you find a material theory of mind.

Clue: there isn't one, there never will be one. QED materialism, a product of that which it is unable to explain or describe or model, is false.

Here's a big gun I'm rolling out:

The sensation of color cannot be accounted for by the physicist's objective picture of light-waves. Could the physiologist account for it, if he had fuller knowledge than he has of the processes in the retina and the nervous processes set up by them in the optical nerve bundles and in the brain? I do not think so.
Erwin Schrödinger
 
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luka

Well-known member
i thought you were going to explain the physical nature of the mind and conciousness
 
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