Osama Bin Laden dead

D

droid

Guest
No problem -- glad to help!

After 9/11, Musharraf and his generals had a golden opportunity to help rebuild and stabilise Afghanistan and liberalise the Pakistani state, and instead they chose to intensify the Kashmir conflict to the point of nuclear war, destroy Balochistan and protect and rebuild the Afghan Taliban, al-Qaida and other jihadi allies (Haqqani, Hikmetyar, etc. etc). The CIA and the Pentagon allowed Musharaf and the ISI to do all of this, just as they prefered to work with warlords rather than civilians in Afghanistan -- but these were terrible tactical and strategic blunders, which was obvious even to the Bush Administration and the ISI by late 2007.

Uh-huh, and the US and its allies could have taken the Taliban's offer to hand over Bin Laden in 2001 (in return for evidence of his involvement in 9/11), avoided a disastrous war, and as a result, also avoided the rise of rogue elements in a Pakistani military (which was greatly boosted by US military spending and involvement in the region), avoided its counterbalancing nuclear alignment with India in 2005, and generally avoided all the horrible shit that comes from launching an ill-thought out war in probably the most intractable region of earth, which has resulted in making the world a much more dangerous place.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
No, because the Taliban had no way of handing over Osama bin Laden in 2001 -- besides which, Musharaf, the army and the ISI were all desperate to save the Taliban and keep them in power, so if he could have been handed over then, he presumably would have been. As if the US were itching to invade Afghanistan and destabilise Pakistan! Quite the opposite.

These rogue elements were not so "rogue" -- they were the backbone, the culture of the army and the ISI. This ain't Turkey! Military training academies were pumping out troops educated in anti-Indian, pro-jihadi propaganda -- obvisiously as long as the army wasn't deliberately attacked or destabilised by the US or USSR they would be free to do so. Presumably you would be against the idea of any such external pressure being exerted on the Pakistnai military.

The counterbalancing nuclear alignment with India was exactly the correct policy for the US to take and it should have taken it all along. I was heartened when it happened and it was the best thing Rice did as Sec of State. The Pakistani military elite needed to pay a price for their ideological and destructive actions in Kashmir, FATA, NWFP, Balochistan and Afghanistan and this was the big price they paid. It took their own cities coming under attack from their former (and in some cases current) patrons to realise that their dual-track policy had, shall we say, gotten out of hand. India is the obvious regional ally for the US, not Pakistan.
 
D

droid

Guest
No, because the Taliban had no way of handing over Osama bin Laden in 2001 -- besides which, Musharaf, the army and the ISI were all desperate to save the Taliban and keep them in power, so if he could have been handed over then, he presumably would have been. As if the US were itching to invade Afghanistan and destabilise Pakistan! Quite the opposite.

Dear god Craner, your historical myopia is getting worse. The Taliban offered to apprehend and handover Bin Laden, the US refused point blank. Its a matter of fact. The Taliban knew where he was, didn't particularly like him and had the capability to capture and hold him.

Bush rejects Taliban offer to hand Bin Laden over

President George Bush rejected as "non-negotiable" an offer by the Taliban to discuss turning over Osama bin Laden if the United States ended the bombing in Afghanistan.
Returning to the White House after a weekend at Camp David, the president said the bombing would not stop, unless the ruling Taliban "turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over." He added, "There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty". In Jalalabad, deputy prime minister Haji Abdul Kabir - the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime - told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, but added: "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

U.S. Refusal of 2001 Taliban Offer Gave bin Laden a Free Pass
by Gareth Porter

WASHINGTON - When George W. Bush rejected a Taliban offer to have Osama bin Laden tried by a moderate group of Islamic states in mid- October 2001, he gave up the only opportunity the United States would have to end bin Laden's terrorist career for the next nine years.

The al Qaeda leader was able to escape into Pakistan a few weeks later, because the Bush administration had no military plan to capture him.

The last Taliban foreign minister, Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil, offered at a secret meeting in Islamabad Oct. 15, 2001 to put bin Laden in the custody of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), to be tried for the 9/11 terror attacks on the United States, Muttawakil told IPS in an interview in Kabul last year.

The OIC is a moderate, Saudi-based organisation representing all Islamic countries. A trial of bin Laden by judges from OIC member countries might have dealt a more serious blow to al Qaeda's Islamic credentials than anything the United States would have done with bin Laden.

President Bush Rejects Taliban Offer To Surrender Osama Bin Laden (The Independent – 15 October 2001)

Second week of bombing begins; Media visits village hit by missile

By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
Monday, 15 October 2001

After a week of debilitating strikes at targets across Afghanistan, the Taliban repeated an offer to hand over Osama bin Laden, only to be rejected by President Bush.

The offer yesterday from Haji Abdul Kabir, the Taliban’s deputy prime minister, to surrender Mr bin Laden if America would halt its bombing and provide evidence against the Saudi-born dissident was not new but it suggested the Taliban are increasingly weary of the air strikes, which have crippled much of their military and communications assets.

The move came as the Taliban granted foreign journalists unprecedented access to the interior for the first time. Reporters were escorted to the village of Karam in southern Afghanistan, where the Taliban said up to 200 civilians were killed in an American bombardment last Wednesday.

The reporters saw clear evidence that many civilians had been killed in the attack, though they could not confirm the number of deaths. “I ask America not to kill us,” pleaded Hussain Khan, who said he had lost four children in the raid. In the rubble of one house, the remains of an arm stuck out from beneath a pile of bricks. A leg had been uncovered near by.

Another old man said: “We are poor people, don’t hit us. We have nothing to do with Osama bin Laden. We are innocent people.” Washington has not commented on the bombardment.

...and so on.
 

vimothy

yurp
OK, so Cuba is therefore legally entitled to launch special forces operations and bombings in Florida as the US has clearly been unwilling to deal with the problems of terrorist acts committed against Cuba by actors residing in Florida?

No. Unless Cuba can make the case that it is legal (e.g. continuous armed conflict, present threat & operational linkages between target and belligerent organisation, etc, etc--that could satisfy the JAB. Then the operation itself would need to satisfy the JIB), in which case, er, obviously yes.

Its clearly ludicrous, but this is the position you support.

Yes, you've really caught me out here.

Chomsky makes the same point:

We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.

Would you have supported such an act from a legal standpoint?

Iraq is not at war with the US, and even if it were, Bush is obviously no longer a military target in any serious sense.

If you go back to the quote I posted from Heller explaining the distinction between the JIB and JAB, this might be a bit clearer. The entire war might be totally illegal (violate the JAB), but combatants can still legally attack targets with military value. The legality of Bin Laden's death does not depend on the legality of the operation.

Its absolute nonsense and a misguided appeal to authority to suggest that every 'expert' on international law agrees with you. In fact, the only reference you've supplied prominently features a US military lawyer.

On the contrary I've linked to blog posts with discussion from several prominent international law scholars. For example, here again is Kevin Jon Heller: "First, with regard to the UBL question: I have no doubt that killing UBL was legal." Or Marko Milanovic: "Was the Killing of Osama bin Laden Lawful? Yes. I wouldn’t say beyond any doubt, but for practical purposes very nearly so." Robert Chesney: "[O]f course the US Government did not purport to be pursuing UBL strictly as a matter of dispensing retributive justice for a past crime... it could not be clearer that the government asserts that it is acting in self-defense, consistent with Article 51 of the UN Charter, in attempting to stop al Qaeda from carrying out further atrocities." Gabor Rona: "All in all, probably a legal kill assuming the official version is true." John B. Bellinger III: "The U.S. killing of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan was lawful under both U.S. domestic law and international law." I could go on.


On the other hand, you haven't linked to a single IL scholar who says that the US operation was illegal, or that the killing of OBL itself was illegal. I suppose this isn't necessary because expert opinion represents a misguided appeal to authority. Much better to rely on the opinions of Noam Chomsky, professor emeritus of linguistics at MIT.

Yes, but as previously noted, you dont see the use of state terror and WP on civilians as problematic either.

Ah yes, the argument Tu quoque (aka "And you are lynching Negroes").

Nevertheless, the mission to kill Bin Laden clearly demonstrated proportionality and discrimination. (I think there were about 20 survivors in the compound, IIRC. And obviously, if the US had dropped thousands of pounds of ordinance, the whole neighbourhood would have been flattened, with no proof that Bin Laden was even there.) Targeted killing>>>>>indiscriminate killing.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
The offer was made -- I actually remember watching it on TV! -- but was rejected because it was obvious bollocks and bluster and time-playing. Musharraf, if you remember, told Colin Powell he would help persuade Omar to hand over bin Laden, when, in fact, his leverage over the Taliban was at a low-point, and al-Qaida influence on Omar and the Taliban at its peak. Omar wasn't willing to hand over bin Laden and wouldn't have been able to if he had; Musharraf ditto. In fact, the A-Q camps were largely dismantled and evacuated by 9/11. Also, as the US was preparing to invade, the Pakistanis were preparing to evacuate their prime terrorist and Taliban assets back to FATA and Quetta. Unbelievably, they were able to do this in the middle of the US offensive with the direct permission of Dick Cheney, who didn't quite realise what he had permitted! Bin Laden was never going to be just "handed over"; he could never have been.
 

vimothy

yurp
The discussion of surrender in the Opinio Juris thread by operational lawyer types is relevant again here.
 

vimothy

yurp
Also, the obvious worry/counter-factual is not Cuba invading the US, but India unilaterally killing another of the ISI's "strategic assets" (and according to Wikipedia, the third richest criminal in history) Dawood Ibrahim.
 

vimothy

yurp
This is a useful article: http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/post...en_aftermath_why_obama_chose_seals_not_drones

Why did the United States choose to launch a raid against al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, rather than bombing it? It wasn't because of a "law enforcement mindset." And it wasn't compelled by human rights law. Rather, it was the best option based on the military objectives, available intelligence, and the law of armed conflict.

...

A second issue prompting the raid was that the Obama administration was worried about collateral damage....

[T]he issue may have been the uncertainty over whether bin Laden was even in the compound. Nation-states are simply not permitted to drop bombs in the hope they will kill the right person; they need to be reasonably certain they are attacking the right target...

Most contemporary discussions of collateral damage skip the threshold legal question likely posed by the Obama administration, namely whether bin Laden or some other lawful military target was actually inside the compound. Unless that question could be answered to a reasonable degree of certainty, any bombing operation would have been unlawful, even with no or minimal collateral damage to surrounding persons and objects.

This reality flows from the principle of distinction, (or "positive identification" in U.S. military parlance) a fundamental tenet of the law of armed conflict. Armed forces are required to "at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives." Positive identification, according to U.S. policies, requires that commanders know with reasonable certainty that "a functionally and geospatially defined object of attack is a legitimate military target." In short, directing attacks against civilians (in this context, non-uniformed personnel) is not permitted, unless they are directly participating in hostilities.

This requirement closely tracks with the text of Protocol I Article 52(2), of the Geneva Conventions, which defines military objectives as "those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to the military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage." This definition, by implication, includes enemy personnel as legitimate military objects. In the case of "civilians," such as bin Laden and those with him in his compound, this identification task also required that those civilians meet the requirement that they are "directly participating in hostilities." As al-Qaeda's leader, bin Laden would easily satisfy this definition, as would his bodyguards and couriers, if only they could be positively identified.

If the U.S. cannot positively identify a lawful target, the law of war and U.S. policies instruct that no bombing operation can take place. This is not to say that the law of armed conflict requires perfection in positively identifying a target (look to America's ongoing CIA drone campaign in Pakistan to see examples of when mistakes have been made); rather, the drafters of the law of armed conflict intended these rules to be a guide to decision-making in warfare, and recognized that bright line rules and fixed borderlines between civilian and military objectives might be difficult to distinguish. However, in the case of uncertainty about identity, the law stands firmly in favor of presuming civilian status, hence the U.S. requirement of positive identification. Thus, the burden is on the attacker to exercise discretion and caution, and they are judged by whether they acted reasonably and honestly in the exercise of those responsibilities.

The positive identification test does not involve any balancing of potential collateral damage against military advantage. Instead, the focus in this case would be on whether the target is a civilian directly participating in hostilities, whose killing furthers a definite military advantage.
 

vimothy

yurp
Unless they had already agreed to this "violation".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/09/osama-bin-laden-us-pakistan-deal

The US and Pakistan struck a secret deal almost a decade ago permitting a US operation against Osama bin Laden on Pakistani soil similar to last week's raid that killed the al-Qaida leader, the Guardian has learned.

The deal was struck between the military leader General Pervez Musharraf and President George Bush after Bin Laden escaped US forces in the mountains of Tora Bora in late 2001, according to serving and retired Pakistani and US officials.

Under its terms, Pakistan would allow US forces to conduct a unilateral raid inside Pakistan in search of Bin Laden, his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and the al-Qaida No3. Afterwards, both sides agreed, Pakistan would vociferously protest the incursion.

"There was an agreement between Bush and Musharraf that if we knew where Osama was, we were going to come and get him," said a former senior US official with knowledge of counterterrorism operations. "The Pakistanis would put up a hue and cry, but they wouldn't stop us."

(...)

A senior Pakistani official said it had been struck under Musharraf and renewed by the army during the “transition to democracy” – a six-month period from February 2008 when Musharraf was still president but a civilian government had been elected.

Referring to the assault on Bin Laden’s Abbottabad compound, the official added: “As far as our American friends are concerned, they have just implemented the agreement.”
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
No. Unless Cuba can make the case that it is legal (e.g. continuous armed conflict, present threat & operational linkages between target and belligerent organisation, etc, etc--that could satisfy the JAB. Then the operation itself would need to satisfy the JIB), in which case, er, obviously yes.

What's the JIB/JAB?
 

vimothy

yurp
Sorry, I mean the two aspects of international humanitarian law: the jus ad bellum, which governs when states can resort to war, and the jus in bello, which governs state conduct in war.
 

vimothy

yurp
Bin Laden’s killing is very likely justified under the laws (such as they are) of war. But, as best as I understand them, these laws are not intended to conduct towards justice; instead they are intended to conduct towards a minimization of those regrettable little side-effects (massacres of prisoners; the deaths of multitudes of civilians &c) that tend to go together with military disputes. It may also possibly be justified in purely pragmatic terms – very possibly, many more people would have died over the longer run had he been captured rather than killed. But it cannot be justified in terms of the procedural requirements of justice as practiced by democracies, which usually do require trials, evidence, judgments that can be appealed and so on

http://crookedtimber.org/2011/05/09/justice-like-the-hawk/
 

vimothy

yurp
Osama bin Laden, America's most wanted man, will not face capture in Pakistan if he agrees to lead a "peaceful life," Pakistani officials tell ABC News.

The surprising announcement comes as Pakistani army officials announced they were pulling their troops out of the North Waziristan region as part of a "peace deal" with the Taliban.

If he is in Pakistan, bin Laden "would not be taken into custody," Major General Shaukat Sultan Khan told ABC News in a telephone interview, "as long as one is being like a peaceful citizen."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/09/pakistan_gives_.html
 

e/y

Well-known member
guess this thread will do...


Attorney General Holder defends execution without charges

In a speech at Northwestern University yesterday, Attorney General Eric Holder provided the most detailed explanation yet for why the Obama administration believes it has the authority to secretly target U.S. citizens for execution by the CIA without even charging them with a crime, notifying them of the accusations, or affording them an opportunity to respond, instead condemning them to death without a shred of transparency or judicial oversight. The administration continues to conceal the legal memorandum it obtained to justify these killings, and, as The New York Times‘ Charlie Savage noted, Holder’s “speech contained no footnotes or specific legal citations, and it fell far short of the level of detail contained in the Office of Legal Counsel memo.” But the crux of Holder’s argument as set forth in yesterday’s speech is this:

Some have argued that the president is required to get permission from a federal court before taking action against a United States citizen who is a senior operational leader of Al Qaeda or associated forces. This is simply not accurate. “Due process” and “judicial process” are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.​

When Obama officials (like Bush officials before them) refer to someone “who is a senior operational leader of Al Qaeda or associated forces,” what they mean is this: someone the President has accused and then decreed in secret to be a Terrorist without ever proving it with evidence. The “process” used by the Obama administration to target Americans for execution-by-CIA is, as reported last October by Reuters, as follows:

American militants like Anwar al-Awlaki are placed on a kill or capture list by a secretive panel of senior government officials, which then informs the president of its decisions . . . There is no public record of the operations or decisions of the panel, which is a subset of the White House’s National Security Council . . . Neither is there any law establishing its existence or setting out the rules by which it is supposed to operate.​

As Leon Panetta recently confirmed, the President makes the ultimate decision as to whether the American will be killed: “[The] President of the United States obviously reviews these cases, reviews the legal justification, and in the end says, go or no go.”

So that is the “process” which Eric Holder yesterday argued constitutes “due process” as required by the Fifth Amendment before the government can deprive of someone of their life: the President and his underlings are your accuser, your judge, your jury and your executioner all wrapped up in one, acting in total secrecy and without your even knowing that he’s accused you and sentenced you to death, and you have no opportunity even to know about, let alone confront and address, his accusations; is that not enough due process for you? At Esquire, Charles Pierce, writing about Holder’s speech, described this best: “a monumental pile of crap that should embarrass every Democrat who ever said an unkind word about John Yoo.”

(cont)

http://www.salon.com/2012/03/06/attorney_general_holder_defends_execution_without_charges/
 

luka

Well-known member
A boy from Saudi Arabia who had it made But he hated the... fortune, glamour, the fame, the game An Oxford graduate, he rather see the sun when it rain He studied economics, Islamic, drink tonic, hate chronic Didn't hate America, he hated the Congress Old daddy died when he was ten These are powerful men Who had paper, slinging oil and men Wealthy, religious, and educated? Ay yo this made lots of bread Family been straight since cavemen Three wives at 17 Now it gets better, his team Yeah it's time to form the mujahideen War hero legend for the Muslims, by any means Reminds me of Farrakhan, Malcolm, and King Play boss who had driving for show His plans was well written So the kid slid to Sudan Had a couple vans some land Few good religious brothers did all his prayers with him Giving him grams It was Afghanistan, he had training camp, smash Jumping out of mid sized Toyotas with hash in 'em Fly turbans, Suburbans, sandals on, swervin' Jumping off of camels, eating turkey and lamb Blood brothers, holy warriors, the others wore covers Fuck buying jewelry, let's explore, bring the luggage They shot to Tora Bora with no order 300 degrees out one glass a water, for four of us Drink brother, these are them Crusaders Who slide through the Mid East To Hamburg, back to the border Then some beef pop off, now it's war A global terror in your area, U.S. calling they dogs Bush with his regime against mujahideen Suicide bombers vs the Marines Al Qaeda would scheme Nerve gas, anthrax thrown on the scene
 
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