rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
yeah, true school heads think real hip hop basically begins and ends around 1989 - 1994. or less charitably, 1993-94. i know that sort of person gets irritating but its also a bit irritating the way the 'real hip hop' head has become this mythical gatekeeper figure that still has great sway over all hip hop. its not like that person is winning or controlling everything and preventing chief keef or drake from getting their due. if this was 2001 or something when there was still a big fuss about real hip hop vs fake hip hop i could see your point but i dont see or hear that very much anymore. i dont see joey badass ruling all rap blogs or getting more plays than 2 chainz. lil wayne is more popular than i dunno, bishop nehru. that kind of trad rap is the underdog in 2013. sure, old heads still prefer it, but what dyou expect?

anyway, it sounds like youre listening to the def jam era, which is amazing just for the monstrous drum machines, if not that great for a whole album. not music made for ipod buds.
 
Last edited:

craner

Beast of Burden
Padraig, you're right, maybe I was being hard on 'Triumph', it is a fine piece, with some good lyrics, but all these years on still seems, I don't know, a bit of a drag. 'Black Shampoo' however, all these years on, is as weird as ever. The least erotic sex song ever made. U-God in a bubble bath talking dirty. It's as odd as it gets. Wu Tang were always dreadful at sex -- funny, but repulsive. 'Ice Cream', I am thinking of you.

I like this twilight, desert era of Wu-affiliates. I like the Wu Tang Killa Bees comp that quickly followed Wu Tang Forever -- some amazing tracks on it. The first Sunz of Man album, the first two Killarmy albums. Bobby Digital in Stereo. Heavy Mental, obviously. The first U-God album has a couple of amazing tracks. Another one I liked that I cannot recall right now. They all had that grand apocalyptic schtick going that was very late-90s, all fed into the calamities that followed, prefigured the post-9/11 deluge. I always thought that after that broke, with the Twin Towers collapsing and Bush embarking on World War 4, Wu Tang seemed redundant. They fed into that pregnant, foreboding, paranoid atmosphere of a preceding time. Only Killah Priest seemed capable of addressing all that followed, and it took until this year for him to do it properly.
 
Last edited:

craner

Beast of Burden
Killah Priest, GZA, Masta Killa, RZA, Ghostface Killah, Inspectah Deck and Hell Razah were my favorite lyricists. At the time I thought they all surpassed Nas, Ras Kass, Jeru, Smoothe da Hustler, Chino XL and other masters, but I now realise I was mistaking complexity for art in some cases.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Masta Killa was very underrated, not just for his great lyrics, but his voice -- that deliberate, precise, measured pace and tone, the way he could slow a track down with a few syllables, tweak a word with his wonderful, thick, wobbly pronounciation. It's tragic he wasn't given a RZA solo album in this era.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Going back to 'Regulate'. I like the Michael McDonald song, but I prefer 'Regulate'. I am trying to remember why I felt the same at the time, and I think (again) it's because of my mother's records, all that plastic 80s-soul stylings she played when I was a kid, and then getting into the Mastercuts complations when I was a teenager. I used to pick them up second hand in Swansea, Mastercuts Disco, 80s groove, Rare Groove, New Jack Swing, and get into them all alongside TLC and Mobb Deep. Plus jungle samples, which opened up your mind a bit. They are listening to this stuff? Must be alright. It's stayed with me. Enjoying lush music, the sound of it. In 1994, aged 14 /15, I didn't mind Warren G or Michael McDonald, and I am happy with that.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Another example: I heard Da La Soul before I heard Steely Dan, even though my Dad was a Donald Fagen fan. But when I finally played 'Peg' I loved it, and not just because I loved De La Soul. I certainly don't love Steely Dan, but to this day I like 'Peg' as much as 3 Feet High & Rising, if not more so. Actually, 'Peg' is one of my favorite songs, and I have lost track of what I am trying to prove here.

I am a Yacht Disco fan. You all know that.
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
Reading these posts about Wu-Tang is something close to heroin withdrawal in sensation and despair. I can't confirm it, but I know it in my bones.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
'Sunshower' is fantastic, but it wasn't on the original UK vinyl release, so I always forget it.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
first, craner - getting these occasional expositions out of you, whether about wu tang or central asia or italian cinema, is one of the reasons I continue to knock around dissensus after all these years. so, you know, never stop.

I hear you on Triumph. it's long, it can drag in parts. and viewed through a historical lens it can hammer away at with you its canonicity, Important Moment in Rap air. but still. that 6 minutes of dense, inscrutable Wu flow sans hook or chorus could keynote not just a chart topping album but a defining pop cultural moment of the late 90s. that a Biggie polished by Diddy could become a mainstream star, sure, but that a bunch of wild ass street dudes with enormous talent and personalities barely corralled by the grand vision of a couple of wily, cerebral elder statesmen could rise to dominate the monoculture in its last pre-Internet spasm of existence? clearly 36 Chambers and the first wave of solo albums are their artistic peak but Forever was their ascension and Triumph is their Roman triumph (I've always wondered if that title was a knowing reference btw), roaring through Times Square spewing Shaolin inside baseball and shitty 90s CGI flames like Caesar parading the Via Sacra in conqueror's regalia. none of which has to do w/the song itself I guess, but: the whole thing is like Inspectah Deck's verse. on paper you don't see what all the fuss is about but in context it all makes sense.

and something like Black Shampoo, with the distance of years I do appreciate how something that just seemed terrible at the time can be celebrated for its utter and disturbing strangeness. I just don't want to have to ever listen to it again. (the Wu were hardly alone in being terrible at sex btw, NYCs 90s roughneck rap is pretty much uniformly terrible at sex. or, like Mobb Deep, basically asexual)

like you I have a soft spot for twilight era Wu affiliate LPs. like I was saying above about g-funk, that first wave of RZA disciples (4th Disciple, True Master etc) distilled a visionary's creative innovation into a formula, but it was a totally awesome formula and at that point still undiluted enough to work and there is some great stuff on the LPs you listed, even if they do all tend to get too deep into 5% theology for my taste.

the X-Files was my favorite show as a child, so 90s, of that time...British people probably don't remember this, but when the Beltway Sniper attacks happened I was a living in Philly (only about 3-4 hours away) and when it came out the guy was a black, disaffected NOI member certain elements of the media, iirc, dragged out a tenuous Sunz of Man or Killarmy connection...the only thing I'd really dispute in your exegesis of the 90s (as florid as it was) is that every decade is a cauldron of horrors if scratch deep enough beneath the surface...otoh the 90s was unique in its inward-focused but kind of black humor tinged rampant paranoia which is articulated in that latter Wu stuff in a way
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
also, point of clarification about yacht disco vs yacht rock

yacht disco is like the lifestyle implied by Yello plus whatever inspired beardy nu disco guys like Lindstrom (i.e. 80s prog, soft rock + easy listening samples)

yacht rock, which is what you mean, is a whole other thing, that Steely Dan etc smooth music segment of the the Socal 70s cocaine rock scene

[edit: everyone who's nevere seen it should ASAP watch all the episodes of that yacht rock series droid posted. it is extremely excellent]
 
Last edited:

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
also one last thing

the paranoia militancy angle of Killarmy/Sunz of Man has always seemed to me a direct lineage from The Spook Who Sat By the Door, which I read in high school in the early 00s and remember having my mind blown a bit by, let alone that it had been written in 1969
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
Deck is going to be someone that years and years later, people reassess and realize his value as an MC.

I swore I wouldn't do this; with Wu, I feel like people always fail to realize that the line-up isn't a concrete thing, and it was actually supposed to be a lot less organized than it was on delivery even THEN. (Priest, Shabazz, Cap, and various other members would all get verses originally when they were actually recording the album, but verses would get replaced, lost, or even on one occasion according to Shabazz, RE-RECORDED by the 9 generals) So the reality is that Wu is built around this harder core of MCs for the main group (Meth, Gza, Rza, Dirty, Deck) and then extraneous friends. It's actually very Roll Deep-ish in a way in which there's technically 20 or so members of the Crew as far as MCs but until it could become a solid, sellable thing, it had to go through x-amounts of affiliates and temporary fillers.

By the time of Triumph, what had actually happened is Wu-Tang was literally in the thrawl of people who'd gravitated to them... "Forever" is indebted to Sunz Of Man, "OB4CL" is all Cappadonna and "Supreme Clientele" bears the overt debt to Superb. In some cases, writing was literally exchanged (although I don't want to go through the headache of trying to convince people who've grown up SWEARING that Ghostface is some lyrical genius that it might not actually be the case.) but more-over, the fact is that this whole era of Wu-Tang from the Rae album onward isn't utilizing the talents of the original members themselves, but rather sponging off the hundreds of affiliates they had.

It feels like a sub-genre in itself with these guys because of them just having access to so much talent under their umbrella. Were it not for Rza's ability to hijack so many proteges and displace them through the larger vehicles, Wu-Tang would've easily petered out and been redundant by 1996 (Which I personally do find to be the case).
 

blacktulip

Pregnant with mandrakes
You make it sound like you've been peddling this conspiracy theory for years, so sorry to put you through the mill again… ;-)

Actually, I'm not necessarily a sceptic here - obviously I have no idea what went on in the Wu camp behind the scenes, but it seems you're suggesting unfair misattribution of writing and production credits?

How would you substantiate all this? Where does your information come from? Not having a go - genuinely interested. I've always (perhaps naively) trusted that MCs outside of the big pop leagues are generally writing their own material and likewise with production - was always happy to attribute the Wu-Tang classic era as down to RZA's being able to micro-manage and concentrate on what mattered musically, as well as the various MCs' desperation for success individually after 36 Chambers opened all those solo deal doors.
 
Last edited:

craner

Beast of Burden
Seconded, more info please!

Priest had a decade-long spat with the whole lot of 'em. Was this the reason?
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
Will go into it, but I'll be brief because I have to run at this moment.... Shabazz himself once personally told me that he spat a verse to one of the records on "36 Chambers" that you all know and love, left the booth, and watched Raekwon enter the booth and re-recite his verse, word for word, and because it sounded better, he let it slide because he assumed that the Clan would 'look out for him'.

This is not the only example, but it's one in particular that sticks out. There's production scandals, rumors of ghostwriting done under the threat of violence, gang mythos, legal shennanigans perpetuated by both Rza and his brother Divine... It's a whole lot of stuff, which I tend to disassociate and try to forget because it's so fucking exhausting to have all this knowledge, and then deal with Wu-Tang, the KISS of rap, superheroes of fucking America.

But I'll deliver more gems, swear.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
New thread - ''Crowley Exposes The Wu - or, 'Schmoo Tang Clan''. I've read about Ghostface and Raekwon literally being drug dealers who got enlisted into rapping so I wouldn't be surprised if early verses were ghostwritten it would break my heart a little if Ghost's later stuff wasn't written by him though.

Its interesting this issue of ghostwriters in rap music, apparently its a lot more widespread than is generally thought (going off an anonymous 'exposure' thread on a rap forum i used to frequent), and I suppose in other genres it isn't an issue AT ALL. What I mean by this is that singers OFTEN have people writing their songs for them, and nobody cares. Cos its their voice, their interpretation of the song, that (supposedly) counts. Other times its probably more their looks/charisma/marketability.

With rap, though, you'd feel cheated to find out Ghostface didn't write his lyrics. As listeners we invest in that display of technical skill and individuality so much. Also there's the whole question of 'realness' in hip-hop which rappers themselves constantly bang on about.

If it turned out Rick Ross, as well as being a fake drug dealer, didn't even write his lyrics, that would be the end of him, wouldn't it? Or not - is the best thing about him as a rapper that he has a booming, distinctive voice, that he has presence and can flow?
 
Top