Lana Del Rey - Born to Die

[zhao]

such an assertion is meaningless.

with aforementioned faults, incompleteness, limits and problems, "Authenticity" is certainly not meaningless.

what is truly meaningless is the post-modern absolute-relativism* you guys don't even actually believe, but is arguing because it's some kind of "anti-rockist" fad.

*which leads to nothing good either.

 

[baboon2004]

Rick Ross. He was brilliant when we didn't know he'd been a cop, but he's shit now we do.

 

[luka]

rick ross is much more succesful after having been outed as it goes. hes been running rap for the last few years really.thats just by the by really

 

[zhao]

what is truly meaningless is the post-modern absolute-relativism* you guys don't even actually believe, but is arguing because it's some kind of "anti-rockist" fad.

this is exactly what is happening:

in your zeal to critique the limits and problems with a common-sense set of critical coordinates, you are going over board, and throwing the baby out with bath water.

 

[muser]

I think the question is how do you actually define something as being fake, making a list saying this thing is fake and better than this thing that is real is a bit pointless. you are already making a value judgement by calling it fake. If you like it you'd probably only be calling it fake because someone else who doesn't like it has, "its really fake/poppy/manufactured whatever but I like it" well you're just saying that because the person you're talking to might choose to dislike it for that reason.

 

[Slothrop]

I once met a guy who'd recently been to Barcelona but didn't like it because it "wasn't very authentic". I thought that was pretty stunning.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

food authenticity is more interesting than discussing musical authenticity and hasnt been done to death. still dont get why people go to places like wagamamas or masala zone when theres so many better places to eat japanese or indian/south asian food in london. i mean, i still eat at both places, but i do it knowing that i recognise authentic cuisine and look down at my fellow diners who obv dont have the superior palette that i have. this increases my enjoyment of the inauthentic food that is on the menu.

 

[baboon2004]

with aforementioned faults, incompleteness, limits and problems, "Authenticity" is certainly not meaningless.

well, what does it mean then, and why is it relevant to whether anything is good or not? Happy talking about originality, that is a concept that is meaningful, but inevitably involves putting together past things in a new way*, ie it is hybrid, like every other thing in this world.

 

[zhao]

food authenticity is more interesting than discussing musical authenticity and hasnt been done to death. still dont get why people go to places like wagamamas or masala zone when theres so many better places to eat japanese or indian/south asian food in london. i mean, i still eat at both places, but i do it knowing that i recognise authentic cuisine and look down at my fellow diners who obv dont have the superior palette that i have. this increases my enjoyment of the inauthentic food that is on the menu.

dude i was JUST about to go there with Czech VS. American Budweiser, etc.

Londoners tell me Authenticity is entirely meaningless when it comes to stouts

 

[luka]

im more on zhaos side re authenticity to be honest. i cant listen to the rolling stones cos of mick jagger.

 

[zhao]

also, earlier in this very thread, when i used the same language, but in a "positive" way which sustains your penchant for ironic post-modern cool, suggesting that maybe people like LDR precisely because of her "fabricated inauthenticity", everyone was like "Zhao has a point".

but now i use the same term in the same way, but from a different angle, all of a sudden it is meaningless, or even "fascist".

this renders your hypocrisy clear as an unmuddied lake

 

[baboon2004]

food authenticity is more interesting than discussing musical authenticity and hasnt been done to death. still dont get why people go to places like wagamamas or masala zone when theres so many better places to eat japanese or indian/south asian food in london. i mean, i still eat at both places, but i do it knowing that i recognise authentic cuisine and look down at my fellow diners who obv dont have the superior palette that i have. this increases my enjoyment of the inauthentic food that is on the menu.

I'd say it's been done to death - it's the foundation of 'taste the difference' type ranges in supermarkets for a start.

Wagamamas is indeed shit, but so are a million places on Green Lanes/Edgware Road etc etc.

 

[luka]

we have kicked it about a lot over on the food threads its true.

 

[Slothrop]

I think we've talked about this before, but as far as I'm concerned with food, paying attention authenticity is important because (and as far as) it works to preserve diversity, subtlety, attention to detail and quality in general. "This curry is bad because it does not taste like (my expectation of) what an authentic curry should taste like" is a stupid sentiment, "this curry is bad because the spicing isn't particularly appropriate to mutton, maybe if the chef had spent more time learning about authentic curry they'd have realised that" is more reasonable.

Also with food the concept of what is "authentic" is even less well defined, because you're talking about a single dish that may be prepared in different ways by different people in different places, and trying to declare some subset of those people, ways, and places to be authentic is always going to be fraught with problems.

 

[zhao]

But you could create a similar list where the "fake" artists are better than the "real" ones.

still waiting. and please:

Londoners tell me Authenticity is meaningless or has nothing to do with quality when it comes to stouts

 

[Slothrop]

im more on zhaos side re authenticity to be honest. i cant listen to the rolling stones cos of mick jagger.

Isn't Mick Jagger the 100% authentic sound of young british blues obsessives from the early 60s, though?

 

[baboon2004]

also, earlier in this very thread, when i used the same language, but in a "positive" way which sustains your penchant for ironic post-modern cool, suggesting that maybe people like LDR precisely because of her "fabricated inauthenticity", everyone was like "Zhao has a point".

but now i use the same term in the same way, but from a different angle, all of a sudden it is meaningless, or even "fascist".

this renders your hypocrisy clear as an unmuddied lake

"it wasn't reason but rather an intuitive emotional outburst yesterday as i was deeply feeling some REAL American Music."

So which real America is this then?

 

[baboon2004]

still waiting. and please:

Eminem is a better rapper than ...lots of more 'authentic' black rappers from 1979.

 

[zhao]

Also with food the concept of what is "authentic" is even less well defined, because you're talking about a single dish that may be prepared in different ways by different people in different places, and trying to declare some subset of those people, ways, and places to be authentic is always going to be fraught with problems.

sure, people from Southern and Northern China will fight to the death on the proper way to make certain things, BUT there will be zero disagreement when both enter a tourist trap.

 

[zhao]

So which real America is this then?

don't understand your question. it's the same real America that produced Charlie Parker, the same fake America that produced Wynton Marsalis