...:::::...::Real Hip-Hop:::...::.... 2015

[Corpsey]

Yeah, I didn't quite know how to react to that news. Obviously it's a horrible thing to happen to anyone, but it's surely hard to hold up Louie as some sort of advocate for peace when half his raps are about shooting people in the face? (Incidentally, has anyone else noticed this obsession with taking people's faces off a particular quirk of Chirap?) But then, aren't I complicit too by listening to (and loving) his music?

I guess this has been the case since at least Dr Dre/Snoop/NWA et al, if not before, though.

Sort of on that subject, the latest Durk tape is grimly fascinating (the bleakness of the situation and mindset it depicts) and has a handful of anthemic auto-tuned bangers like this:

 

[mistersloane]

I love that Chief Keef lyric where he goes "Shoot you in your nose....or your mouth. Cos you wasn't talking right". There seems to be a lot of people confusing parts of the body around.

 

[CrowleyHead]

Yeah, I didn't quite know how to react to that news. Obviously it's a horrible thing to happen to anyone, but it's surely hard to hold up Louie as some sort of advocate for peace when half his raps are about shooting people in the face?

Corpse, all due respect, the fuck does that even mean?

 

[luka]

means he deserved it?

 

[Corpsey]

Well, I'm obviously confused about my feelings regarding it, perhaps that explains the - admitted - incoherance.

Of course, he isn't being held up as an advocate of peace, for starters!

What I'm trying to battle with is the kneejerk reaction to this happening along the lines of "live by the gun..." Now, I know that rap isn't the same thing as reality, and that rap doesn't cause these problems (albeit with the caveat that music must be said to be IMPORTANT to people, and therefore influential), but there's still something rather beguiling about the whole thing. Another reaction to Louie being shot is to say "Stop the violence", but at the same time I have to recognise that an element of Louie's appeal to me as a rapper is the psychopathic brutality of some/many of his lyrics. (And that these lyrics are made MORE appealing, horrifically enough, by how plausible they seem.)

This is a perpetual contradiction I encounter in rap music. Durk for example has a track on his new tape where he says " stop the killing its crazy" - and the very next track, he's back to boasting about taking "opps" faces of etc etc. I mean, its fascinating. And to grow up in the midst of such violence, where violence is a constant threat, I can only imagine the sort of mindset that fosters and the sort of attitude you have to adopt to defend against that.

I realise all this is incoherant also, but these are the moral contradictions I feel as a listener to rap music, particularly - for whatever reason - to drill music.

Perhaps the ultimate argument against all this is to point out that violence precedes rap music and would exist without it, and that it is important a) that the wider world is aware of it and b) that we can recognise and celebrate the musical talent coming out of these communities.

I dunno, I'm always aware that as an outsider to this world I'm in a strange position. Am I nothing more than a voyeur, taking a "cheap holiday in someone else's misery"?

This won't have answered your questions or my own but I'd like to know your take on all this for sure. Please don't get me wrong, I was very glad to hear that Louie had survived that attack. Love his music and of course I realise his music doesn't reflect who he is as a person completely. I think what struck me more was my own position, my own potentially hypocritical distaste for the real manifestation of the violence I enjoy when it's depicted in rap songs.

 

[Corpsey]

Noz did a post sortof on this subject recently:

http://tumblinerb.com/post/130667281114/when-people-say-theyre-troubled-by-homophobic#notes

You absolutely do not need to directly identify or even agree with art in order to appreciate it. In fact the cool thing about art is that it gives you an access point to the hearts and minds of people who you might’ve never even encountered in an artless world. But in order to fully appreciate this - and to develop anything resembling an informed opinion on the art or artist - you need to first accept that their values, language or traditions might differ from your own. It’s roughly the same process you have to go through when you meet new humans irl.

I wouldn’t fault someone who is troubled by homophobic, misogynistic or violent rap lyrics - I myself am sometimes troubled by homophobic, misogynistic or violent rap lyrics - and I certainly wouldn’t deny them their right to choose not listen to something that makes them uncomfortable. But I would totally suggest that it’s worth pushing through that discomfort if only because everyone breathing should be able to find some sort of joy in The Great Adventures of Slick Rick.

 

[Corpsey]

Not to throw things o/t (actually its somewhat relevant) but I also enjoyed this Noz post
gregorism asked:
what do you make of the semi ironic fan love guys like gucci and cam recieve(i think way back their rappers of choice were ODB,bushwick bill). it always comes from the same type of fan,educated,metropolitan and working in or heavy interested in the creative industry. i dont doubt a lot of them really love these artists but it looks a bit iffy from a distance almost like they're laughing at them sometimes.

Here’s the thing: Fuck irony. The ironic consumption of art and entertainment is just a pose adopted by people who take shame in their enjoyment of things that they’ve been taught to not like. It’s a few degrees removed from the ridiculous idea of a “guilty pleasure” (which is insane - there should be no guilt in pleasure as long as it doesn’t bother or hurt anyone else). Insecure jerks construct these distances to subconsciously protect themselves from judgement but in doing so they only reaffirm the cultural divides and rigid identity expectations that have done nothing but made the world worse for as long as the world has existed.

With these particular rappers it’s especially frustrating because they are all reasonably serious artists who are in on the jokes more often than not. The reason they appeal to people in creative industries is because they themselves are creative as fuck! They’re straight up geniuses and irony only robs them of autonomy in their own humor and creativity.

This shit needs to stop. If you are a white person and you want to listen to black music then go for it. If you’re a tall person and music made by midgets is jamming to you then jam it. Rich to poor, educated to “ignorant,” city to country, whatever, whatever. All of this is perfectly fine and healthy. No good or sane people will be bothered by your taste as long as you are able to acknowledge your position of difference and show some basic respect for the art and the artist and the cultures that produce them. Access is awesome when you use it right. But don’t act like someone else’s life or work is a hilarious joke, your hilarious joke, just because they are different.

 

[CrowleyHead]

I mean, live and die by the gun is a cold reality, and recognizing it is one thing. But I don't know if any rapper has it coming per se from outside engagement.

Like if you go back a few years ago when Keef's friends and that kid Jojo from the Bricks team had that spat which ended up with the kid dead (and a ton of innuendo that someone in Keef's camp might've been aware of the details), that kid apparently threw gang signs and threatened to shoot Reese or whatever. The kid dies. But as much as I can see the logic of what happened to him, and as much as it was a needlessly stupid move, I don't think "Well, that takes care of that!". Nor does anyone here TBF.

I do appreciate you articulating your thoughts though, b/c the "Louie ain't exactly a peace advocate" thing had me bewildered in particular. Nobody is really out here getting killed in the needless violence for communities like in Chicago out of innocence per se. Still, rappers tend to try to remove themselves from that life as much as possible; or as much as they're willing.

Another example is Flocka. Before Dunk died, he was hanging out with every blood set across America, dudes running up on him constantly, the shootings, the robbery attempts, you name it. Now he wants to make an EDM album because he knows people at EDM shows aren't going to try and rob him over being a blood or because he made money. And the key difference to the mentality is that he's lost one of his closest family members.

Its definitely a paralyzing thing when engaging with not only the violent content of lyrics, but also the background elements at play for the people who have to live with that reality the music is based on.

 

[Corpsey]

The comparison is often made with e.g. the Godfather movies. Highly romanticised and dramatised, but still making thrilling entertainment out of real-world violence.

With some of this music though it's almost as if the Godfather or Goodfellas was directed by the Mafia themselves. (They dealt with this in that episode of the Sopranos where Christopher is becoming a consultant on a Jon Favreau mob movie - Favreaus excitement over the mythologised violence palling in the face of the real thing.)

Also most gangsta rap doesn't take on the perspective of the victims of violence nearly as much as the perpetrators. And its obviously because there's a part of us that likes to imagine ourselves the powerful murderer rather than the victim. I'm simplifying here (about to get off a train), maybe will elaborate later.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

i dont think corpsey is saying he deserves it, but yeah, im on a similar page. if you rap about shooting people in the face, then i mean, its hard to really sympathise that much - thats what youre putting out there.

i dont wish that kind of violence on keef, or durk or louie, but a lot of these guys are still in the same place where violence is not that irregular, so if you keep talking about how youre gonna shoot someones face off, then its not that unexpected that someone might want to do the same to you. or put you to the test. or you might just get caught up in it somehow, whether you are just rapping about it or a passive observer.

id say the same thing about someone like tarantino if i read that someone shot him too. all that vile nihilism in his movies - well sometimes you get out what you put in. i dont think writing or espousing violence means you should be the victim of it, obv (though the diff between rap and movies is that rap is in the first person and there is no separation between who the rapper is off-mic and on-mic), but it makes it hard to really sympathise, in the way you might, if the person being shot was idk, kendrick, chuck d, or kanye even (though with kanye, rather than violence, it would probably more likely be to do with a heinous crime of fashion).

Still, rappers tend to try to remove themselves from that life as much as possible; or as much as they're willing.

they also have brains. and the opportunity to choose what they rap about. they dont HAVE to rap about shooting someone in the mouth. but ultimately, that is what they choose to rap about. they DO have some autonomy. regardless of the environmental factors.

 

[CrowleyHead]

Empathy is a funny thing.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

as is personal responsibility.

 

[dert]

(though the diff between rap and movies is that rap is in the first person and there is no separation between who the rapper is off-mic and on-mic)

oh come on. and your hypothetical about tarantino being shot is irrelevant

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

isnt that just music in general? the way we process music/musicians is often more intimate than when we see a drama (though yeah, there obv are instances when people dont like a certain actor cos of their character). for most artists, presenting their studio/record persona as being more or less that of their real self, is sort of part of the package. esp in hip hop, where being real/authentic etc etc is highly stressed.

 

[sadmanbarty]

Butch Dawson:

 

[sadmanbarty]

 

[CrowleyHead]

isnt that just music in general? the way we process music/musicians is often more intimate than when we see a drama (though yeah, there obv are instances when people dont like a certain actor cos of their character). for most artists, presenting their studio/record persona as being more or less that of their real self, is sort of part of the package. esp in hip hop, where being real/authentic etc etc is highly stressed.

You do realize that music is not getting people killed? King Louie didn't get shot in the head because he's got a bunch of verses about shooting people in the face, he's gotten shot in the head because he's in a gang with people who shoot people in the head or threaten to shoot people in the head in more boundaries than music.

The music, for all its moral questionability, is idealistically a means to get Louie away from that position. I can't say I like the quality of the music as far as my own tastes; doesn't matter, if it does what he needs to get in the position where maybe he can live a life where he doesn't get killed.

Because specifically with Chicago these guys have people who've wanted to kill them for reasons that are vivid to them but trivial to us that have nothing to do with music, like Louie's friends and family being people other people don't like, he lives on a certain block, whatever whatever.

People are not dying over verses, and their verses are not an indicator of the quality of human being they are.

Moreover, you insist that there's a guarantee of authenticity. What 'authenticity' was there in say Odd Future or Lil' B? Or in Three Six Mafia? Was Pun actually invading people's dreams like Freddy Kruger, and was Big L actually the antichrist? Did Slick Rick actually have those fucking cartoon capers?

I mean god, Montana of 300 got his card pulled last year, and if he drops a new tape with enough bangers Luka and I are not going to care too heavily about the fact that when he tried to rep a housing project in Chicago, he repped one that's been demolished for years.

I just feel your heavy handedness in the case of the content of art defining the lifestyle of the human can get presumptuous. Rappers have to live with their words, but they aren't their words entirely and those can't be seen as the basis of their existence. Honestly a lot of these rappers aren't even good enough to make their words attempt to do that, if that is their goals even.

 

[Corpsey]

For what it's worth (which might not be much), in the excellent documentary 'The Interrupters', which is all about gang violence in Chicago, there isn't (as far as I remember) much reference to rap music's influence at all.

Rap music also doesn't get mentioned in an article like this:
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-M...hy-Are-There-So-Many-Gang-Members-in-Chicago/

This doesn't necessarily alleviate my feelings of ambiguity around enjoying drill music, but perhaps gives the lie to the notion that drill music is CAUSING violence in the first place, rather than reflecting it.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

The music, for all its moral questionability, is idealistically a means to get Louie away from that position. I can't say I like the quality of the music as far as my own tastes; doesn't matter, if it does what he needs to get in the position where maybe he can live a life where he doesn't get killed.

really?

People are not dying over verses, and their verses are not an indicator of the quality of human being they are.

you seem to be saying theres nothing of them in their lyrics. that theyre just writing to genre criteria. im not saying louie is a bad *person*. decent, or just normal people can still do or say bad things.

re: authenticity, do i personally care if jeezy served crack to anyone? no. but clearly a large enough portion of the audience did. his whole PR campaign was selling him as 'the snowman' (wink wink!). lets not even talk about clipse' whole career.

if 'realness' didnt matter, you wouldnt have dis tracks calling another artist out for not living what they rap about. some of that is just sport of course, but it still carries weight. you think when mobb deep got mugged at one of their london shows that part of that WASNT to do with people wanting to take these 'official queensbridge murderers' down a peg or two? (and there are a dozen cases like this). rappers' legal histories and troubles have been sold as badges of honour to show how real their music is at least since idk, 1993.

I just feel your heavy handedness in the case of the content of art defining the lifestyle of the human can get presumptuous. Rappers have to live with their words, but they aren't their words entirely and those can't be seen as the basis of their existence. Honestly a lot of these rappers aren't even good enough to make their words attempt to do that, if that is their goals even.

im not saying he deserved to get shot (if only cos i really like a few of his songs).
im not saying everything he raps about is truth.
nor am i saying everything he raps about SHOULD be 'truth'. he is allowed to make up whatever he likes.

but i am saying that my reaction, is perhaps less mournful, than what it might be if it were a diff artist (im perhaps being unfair to louie though in suggesting every verse he ever wrote was about shooting someones face off, that one about actavis is one of my personal favourites).

this idea that you can sing/rap about anything you like, and that it goes into an empty vacuum is a bit too easy i think. if people can talk about how 'positive' and 'conscious' late 80s rap affected and created a mood, its not that much of a stretch to suggest drill might do something of its own, even if it is just reflecting whats happening in chicago, or serving as an outlet of sorts. im not saying listening to drill = increase in killings.

yes, these guys cant easily escape the environments/situations they are in, i noted that in my earlier post, but at the same time, i dont have to condone every action of theirs. i think its actually insulting to just excuse everything cos of where theyre from, even if does allow you to understand a bit better. but things like that video of reese hitting a girl a few years back - am i just going to say thats not his fault? he didnt know any better? (tbh i dont actually know his family background, so maybe he didnt, but that doesnt mean, its all ok).

this was a good piece i read about chicago w/r/t the chi-raq movie -
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/07/m...of-chicago-gang-wars.html?mwrsm=Facebook&_r=0

 

[Pandiculate]

Butch Dawson:

Keep almost buying this on bandcamp, but it's $5 which seems ridiculous in this day and age.