Hardcore Continuum Autopsy

[droid]

I cant find my comments on the double tempo thing, but one important thing is that grounding the rhythms in half time bass allowed the beats to slide into top gear tempo wise - which meant people could still dance to it despite the accelerated tempo. If you check out a happy hardcore or deathchant type tune at 160+, there's no space, no groove, fast 4x4 obliterates nuance with its relentlessness, yet with jungle you can have these variations in pressure and gorgeously spacious rhythmscapes at the same tempo.

Incidentally, thats what got lost once the BPMs hit 180. there's a sweet spot there, roughly between 156 & 170.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I am 100% sure I have read you + other people say exactly that before, half-time bass, 155-170ish sweet spot, etc

 

[john eden]

bit of a stretch to call him reggae proper no?

Yeah my reggae nerd powers are diminished so I couldn’t remember many more names lol.

He’s an interesting figure for sure - good bits about Coach House Studios in the Lloyd Bradley Sounds Like London. Apparently a terrible landlord tho.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

one of the interesting (to me) things in jungle is how much the more skilled producers constantly modify the main break with fills, flourishes, variations

obviously this gets more complex the later you get until at a certain point it swings back hard the other way

or idk Photek even, so clinically precise that it's completely stripped of any of the frenetic, clattering, etc

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I am interested in general in how any musician, arranger, producer maintains interest in a groove of any kind

use of percussion beyond a trap set, syncopation, elements from dub (echo, delay, use of space), constant introduction/removal of elements

really listening to so much disco, disco not disco, post-disco, etc as well as electro, all the tricks you start recognizing if you hear them enough times

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

that's a bit far afield from any continuum talk so I'll just leave off, but yes

but also quickly Eddy Grant also pops up as a producer etc of other people's things, talking about percussion. or in this case percussion + fuzz.

 

[droid]

Oh no, Photek was the master of creative break slicing, almost unparalleled. Check out his EZ rollers remix. You can have complexity and groove without frenetics. Even something rhythmically simple like Rings around Saturn is beautifully done, and those little apache drops in UFO... like lightning illuminating a dark thicket of breaks. Pure genius.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Pure genius

not disputing it, just a different thing. v Blade Runner.

 

[droid]

Dont!

Check out this lad, all those little micro rolls around a simple pattern after the bass comes in. Wonderfully spacious and still a great groove.

 

[thirdform]

yeah 170+ is too fast unless it's gabba.

i do miss those 150-160 tempos in modern music tho, excluding juke obviously.

id like 2 say im down with the whole autonomic/halftime thing but these days (2018) it ain't doing it for me.

 

[thirdform]

i might not be looking hard enough granted.

 

[sadmanbarty]

one thing thats noticeable if you listen for it is that the majority of jungle tunes tend to have a snare on the 2 & the 4

not in 94, probably not by late 93 either. the snare emphasis moving away from the 2 and 4 is one of the things that delineates jungle from hardcore. jungle's physicality; the way it tugs you sideways, the way it pulls you off balance, is all dependant on it not landing on both the 2 and 4 in the same bar.

 

[sadmanbarty]

"swing" seems like one of those abstract rhythmic concepts no one can actually properly explain, tho I'm sure that's wrong + I've just heard never anyone properly explain it

people do say 'swing' in the same as they'd say 'that rocks', 'it's funky', 'it's groovy', but it's also a real, measurable thing as well.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

real, measurable thing as well

is there a relatively clear way to explain it technically? especially in terms of, say, 2-step?

I get that it has to do with changing the duration or placement of eighth (or sixteenth) notes on the hi-hat (tho you can also do it on guitar, piano, etc)? moving from a straight eighth note, 1-e-AND-a, closer to the first note of the next measure, i.e. between "and" and the 2 of 2-e-and-a, and the closer it gets to the 2 the greater the degree of swing? implying but not necessarily playing triplets? that may be wrong/a dumb way of saying it.

while we're it at I think I basically also get clave, tresillo, etc 3:2. is this a sped up tresillo of sorts? especially at the very beginning, sounds like 3:2 to me.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

also I get that you can break down/explain things like swing, shuffle, etc but it seems like at some level it always comes down to feel when you're actually playing drums

in a different way in drum programming - producers + would be producers often seem to get metaphysical when talking about things like creating the swing in 2-step

I'm sure it's cos I'm not really a drummer but I've always been interested with that kinda abstract side of drums

also v interested in all functional rhythmic tricks tho

 

[Slothrop]

I get that it has to do with changing the duration or placement of eighth (or sixteenth) notes on the hi-hat (tho you can also do it on guitar, piano, etc)? moving from a straight eighth note, 1-e-AND-a, closer to the first note of the next measure, i.e. between "and" and the 2 of 2-e-and-a, and the closer it gets to the 2 the greater the degree of swing? implying but not necessarily playing triplets?

That's roughly how I'd understand it - sixteenth notes delayed slightly. Although I suspect that people who are really good at it are doing smarter stuff with timing and velocity than just applying a consistent X% delay to every off-beat sixteenth. And yeah, you get swing on any instrument that's playing sixteenth notes, basically. Listen to old boogie woogie and (derp) swing piano, for instance.

 

[droid]

not in 94, probably not by late 93 either. the snare emphasis moving away from the 2 and 4 is one of the things that delineates jungle from hardcore. jungle's physicality; the way it tugs you sideways, the way it pulls you off balance, is all dependant on it not landing on both the 2 and 4 in the same bar.

A few random samples of 2/4 from 94/95:


And even when you dont have the snare on the 2 & 4 you still have it on the 2 of every bar, or they have a second or third break that comes in and adds it.


Of course it depends on the break, tunes that use say... hotpants and helicopter tend to have a more prominent 2/4 snare. Whereas Soul Pride and Amen rollers tend to have longer bar phrases ala:


Like I said, there's plenty of tunes that have much longer phrases but it is surprising how many tunes have the snare on 2/4, or have it implied. Whats important though is all the other stuff around it.

 

[Slothrop]

Like I said, there's plenty of tunes that have much longer phrases but it is surprising how many tunes have the snare on 2/4, or have it implied. Whats important though is all the other stuff around it.

The 2/4 snare is normally there, but it feels like part of the technique of jungle is trying to disrupt that pattern to tweak the dancers' expectations. Sometimes it's just in the last half bar at the end of a phrase, sometimes they really see how far out they can push it without entirely losing sight of the implicit pulse, but either way it seems to be where a lot of the tension and forward movement comes from.

 

[sadmanbarty]

Helicopter tune and special dedication don’t have the snare on 2 and 4. Null lines has an emphasis on the off beat of three as well as the 4, which gives it an angularity.

Just skimming through these:

I think this has one 2 & 4 tune (Levitcus-Burial):


This has 3 (one was Levitcus- Burial, one was Alex Reece so not exactly proper Jungle, also Bukem's Horizons which was released in 95)


Didn’t hear any in this

 

[CORP$EY]

FYI the hardcore continuum died when jazzy bastards invaded it and started talking about snare patterns