Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I liked the bit in The Last Jedi where they go to the planet that's basically Dubai except there's an entire planet of it, the point of which seemed to be that capitalism is bad and rich people tend to be kind of mean.
Star Wars
- Thread starter Woebot
- Start date
The Force Awakens and Rogue One were alright, but it's tough to work up much enthusiasm for any of them. You're not missing anything if you don't see them, and if you saw them at the time then the bulk of the discussion was just memes, complaints about a lack of originality and some culture war stuff about Rose in TLJ and having a black storm trooper. There doesn't seem to be any lasting impact whatsoever.
Clinamenic
Binary & Tweed
Yeah and most of the shows are kinda like this too (Andor was perhaps the only one I'd recommend beyond mindless star wars fanfare), but they all have really interesting set design and cosmetics and whatnot. IE from a production standpoint, some of these films and shows are marvelous. Its just from standpoints of character, plot, message, etc, most of them aren't that interesting or memorable, in my opinion.
craner
Beast of Burden
I agree, it all looks completely baffling in retrospect. You could probably find the greatest insight into these movies on the business and finance pages.
And they're still churning this stuff out on Disney+!
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
Mandalorian is meant to be genuinely good but I dont have disney and life is too short.
IdleRich
IdleRich
I actually saw that, thought it was pretty basic.
mixed_biscuits
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A gentle reminder
A gentle reminder
sus
Moderator
I'm honored. OK I'm gonna do it
sus
Moderator
So, a lot of Star Wars fans are crazy about the “machete order,” where you watch IV and V, skip back to II and III, and finish on VI—without ever touching Phantom Menace. I get it—Jar-Jar’s cringe (and probably racially problematic); plus there’s a nice parallel in ages and development between Luke and Anakin that gets emphasized if you watch this way. But ultimately I think these fans miss the point of Star Wars, because they trust their own nostalgia, and public reception, more than they trust George Lucas. This is the kind of crazy ass-backwards justificationism that you see in e.g. fans considering Lucas’s 1997 Original Trilogy edits as “cultural vandalism.”
And the thing Lucas has always maintained is that Star Wars is Anakin’s saga, first and foremost. We’re all attached to Luke, but it’s Vader who’s the centerpiece: our central hero in the prequel trilogy, and our central villain in the original trilogy (OT). Fans tend to disagree out of sentiment: either they’re more attached to Luke, or they find it hard to identify with a guy who massacred hundreds of little kids in cold blood. Fair—but still misses the point.
Before we get into why Attack of the Clones is a masterpiece, we have to contextualize it within the saga, which includes a general defense of the prequels. Star Wars is the story of Anakin, and the prequels are the most interesting and thematically—philosophically, conceptually, whatever pretentious word you want to use—richest part of the saga. Because they tell you how Anakin became Vader, and watching the process of Falling is always more informative than simply seeing someone who's already Fallen.
Star Wars isn’t special because it has a story-arc about good guy rebels taking down a big bad empire. That’s a very simple story, a a children’s story. Light and dark, good and evil, are consistent and clear-cut, with only the slightest final disruption to this logic in Vader’s Return of the Jedi defeat of Palpatine. (See how that title doubles? It’s the Jedi in Vader who has his return. It’s still as much Anakin’s story as Luke’s.) We might even go so far as to say that the overtly "childish" elements of the prequels (see: Jar-Jar) were inserted precisely because they are otherwise more adult films than the original trilogy—full of trade negotiations, political treaties, a gridlocked senate, the conflict between romantic love and duty, the maneuverings of Palpatine, the rape and torture of Anakin’s mother, and the graphic slaughter of innocents.
What's special about Star Wars is the Fall of the Republic, whose Fall of course goes hand-in-hand with Anakin's. What's special is watching the Republic's failures and decadence and moral lapses of the Republic—which play out through Anakin, who (as one victim of the Republic, who makes the Republic his victim) stands for its more systemic failures. Those systemic failures, almost by definition, happen off-screen, to anonymous characters who aren’t important enough to merit screen-time. What’s interesting is how damn blurry good and evil are in the prequel films. Some people take a long time to show their true colors. Some people don’t have true colors—just cultural upbringings and complex situations. Evil is done in the name of good. Good is done in the name of evil. The problems of republicanism stand side by side with the problems of tyranny, rather than falling into a politically naive good and evil dichotomy. Star Wars is a phoenix myth, a rebirth myth, a karmic myth. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. In these mythic cycle’s, it’s always the Fall that’s what’s interesting—the Eden myth, the Golden Age myth. The redemption arc’s a feel-good tack-on. Emotional palliation, from which we learn no lessons. In the pain of the prequels is real wisdom.
sus
Moderator
So why do we care about Attack of the Clones? Well, Clones is the pivot point. It’s when "Skywalker"—a child of nearly limitless potential—first begins to change into Vader, ossified machine-man only capable of destruction. It’s when the Republic starts to fall. It’s when the Empire gets its army, the army we see Luke & co fight against throughout the trilogy. Phantom and Revenge are important, but they’re just set-up and exposition of the inevitable, respectively. Clones is the turning point. Clones is where things could have gone differently. By Revenge it was already too late.
sus
Moderator
To me, the main thematic axis of Clones—the main "showdown between heuristics," or "duel of philosophies"—is between force and communication. Two modes of problem resolution. Padme, diplomat, symbolizes communication. Anakin, warrior, symbolizes force. Obi-Wan is a balanced hybrid; he's "a devastating warrior who'd rather not fight," a "negotiator without peer who frankly prefers to sit alone in a quiet cave and meditate" (M. Stover). It's why he's (more or less) the only Jedi who makes it out of the prequels alive. If this seems overly speculative or "literary," note that there are at least three conversations between Anakin and Padme where they specifically contrast their "negotiating" styles; at the end of the film, pressed into a gunfight, they crack jokes about "aggressive negotiations."
The other main thematic axis is a showdown between two definitions of "feeling." Those definitions get blurred, which can be confusing on first watch—sometimes the Jedi seem to counsel trusting your feelings, and sometimes they seem to counsel setting feelings aside, what's the deal? One we'll call "personal feelings"—essentially, desire. What you want out of a situation. The other kind of feeling is something like "intuitive understanding of a situation." Reading the force, reading the room. And what happens is that desire can cloud your ability to assess and read a situation. It's a lot more complicated; it's not so much that one kind of feeling is "good" or "bad," more like there's a dosage you wanna strike between the two. But this gives us somewhere to start.
The other main thematic axis is a showdown between two definitions of "feeling." Those definitions get blurred, which can be confusing on first watch—sometimes the Jedi seem to counsel trusting your feelings, and sometimes they seem to counsel setting feelings aside, what's the deal? One we'll call "personal feelings"—essentially, desire. What you want out of a situation. The other kind of feeling is something like "intuitive understanding of a situation." Reading the force, reading the room. And what happens is that desire can cloud your ability to assess and read a situation. It's a lot more complicated; it's not so much that one kind of feeling is "good" or "bad," more like there's a dosage you wanna strike between the two. But this gives us somewhere to start.
sus
Moderator
It's a nice theory but I don't think it makes thematic sense, I think it makes more thematic sense that Amidala "did everything right," ethically speaking—gave the indigenous Gungans autonomy and congressional representation, trusted Jar-Jar to stand in her place—and she was punished for it anyway.
sus
Moderator
@craner So right now you're probably thinking, sure, Gus can crank up the literary notes, project a buncha symbolism on the canvas, tell a pretty story, but is it really there? Is it really in the film? Is the film a masterpiece? Or is Gus just a master of making pop culture sound like serious faire?
I can show you, but showing you is going to require unpacking a buncha scenes. Are you ready to embark on this? Will you accept the call to adventure?
I can show you, but showing you is going to require unpacking a buncha scenes. Are you ready to embark on this? Will you accept the call to adventure?
shakahislop
Well-known member
growing up i remember going onto the internet when it was just kicking off properly and there were loads of americans going on about star wars, it was always hard to reconcile what i saw when i watched it (an old children's film) with how into it people seemed to be
shakahislop
Well-known member
i still have an aversion to nerd shit. tabletop gaming cafes. star wars. it's been the most consistant part of my taste over decades. i can't shake it
luka
Well-known member
whats striking about watching the first star wars as a big person is how boring it is. two camp droids walking through a desert for hours on end. i did like it as a kid tho. not seen any other the new ones but i watched about 12 or 13 minutes of one with liam neeson in it and it was one of those films where you cant even understand how it can be so bad