GRIME- breaking news, gossip, slander, lies etc

[viktorvaughn]

As I said Logan, it didn't remind me of one hip hop record particularly. That doesn't mean it isn't reminiscent of hip hop and I'm making this up. And this is a trend in grime, it's not just a case of Breakaway sounding very much like hip-pop, it's a lot of the music.

There is a difference between the way garage and grime have both used vocals. UK garage was always in the business of bootlegging US r&b tracks wholesale. A lot of the original tunes from the mid 90s onwards always sounded like bad pop records to me, even though most of them didn't stick to traditional song structures.

Grime was at first a departure from all that. For me the move towards making it more "accessible" feels very cynical and is less exciting than making music that's accessible just because it's different and new and worth checking out. That's how good music picks up new listeners. Trying to make grime into urban elevator music is only going alienate its core audience.

I don't think its all doom and gloom for grime though. I'm glad JME etc are surviving without the majors, despite not being a fan of Breakaway I've got a lot of respect for Tinchy and Davinche and hope the album does well. I'm just not into this whole watering down thing - which I think most of us agree it isn't good, we just disagree about the records that are doing it.

I think another thing to consider is the rigid aherence to the verse-chorus-verse structure. Listening to Rules and Regulations today for the first time it seemed that all the tunes were like that. I think that compares unfavourably to Creeper I and II which had a lot of real long sustained flows in it. Sustained bars like that have the ghost of radio sets in them which can only be a good thing in my book. Ramming bars into a pre-set structure can sometimes hamper the verses a little, and i think we can all call to mind some pretty stupid/poor grime choruses. There is tune on Creeper I where Wiley flows for over 4 minutes and it's fucking amazing. Similarly his chorus-less Night Bus war dub, and even hip-hop tunes like Mos Def's 'Hip-Hop' have always be big favourites of mine cos they have amazing energy.

 

[Logan Sama]

Gangsterz had no chorus.

Roll Deep's Stampers had no chorus either.

And Matt, how many 4/4 Garage raves have been shut down in the last 3 years? Not Niche events up north where people get shot, Garage made by people like MJ Cole etc. That music doesn't go through adversity in terms of concerted efforts to block it out.

 

[outraygeous]

I am still waiting for actual examples of ANY solitary hip hop record the Breakaway beat sounds like.

maybe sighting ja rule in my comments was wrong but the whole hip pop formula of bars then a girl singing is nothing new and to your average listener on the street it will sound like something ashanti and ja rule knocked up together.

to find a beat just like breakaway will be hard, but the formula it uses no.

i personally hate this type of music, and for grime to go down this route is pretty upsetting.

 

[Logan Sama]

Now the thing is, a track like Leave Me Alone (KT Pearl and Kano) is basically the same formula, but that is one of my favourite records to come out of this music. I love it.

 

[bun-u]

apologies if it's been on here already but there is a 2 page feature in Time Out this week about Grime nights being shut down by the police.

It's here in case you missed it (not the best scan)

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/...anvas/Press cuttings/hp_scanDS_7361992859.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/...anvas/Press cuttings/hp_scanDS_7361974928.jpg

 

[MATT MAson]

And Matt, how many 4/4 Garage raves have been shut down in the last 3 years? Not Niche events up north where people get shot, Garage made by people like MJ Cole etc. That music doesn't go through adversity in terms of concerted efforts to block it out.

There was a time when garage raves were the target grime raves are now. Same thing goes for R&B and house, esp in Westminster. There are still a lot of club owners that wouldn't touch a garage night with a bargepole.

 

[outraygeous]

Now the thing is, a track like Leave Me Alone (KT Pearl and Kano) is basically the same formula, but that is one of my favourite records to come out of this music. I love it.

im still trying to find that tune, the vibe on that is so much more grime than breakaway.

i guess its now down to peoples personal perceptions of what grime is.

 

[Tactics]

yo Sama

Now the thing is, a track like Leave Me Alone (KT Pearl and Kano) is basically the same formula, but that is one of my favourite records to come out of this music. I love it.

are you really claiming that much ignorance on this? these tracks that are mentioned SOUND like hip-pop/r&b tracks cos they use the same dynamics and usually format (formula) but just a different tempo...I'm sure I explained this earlier and I'm sure you know this

the track as a whole just feels UK though cos of its 'imperfections' if you follow (overall mastering level, mismatched drums, tempo, off key singing, tinchy's unique rhyming style)? US tracks that do the same aren't 'perfect' just more polished...obviously from experience

now a track like above does more or less the same thing BUT makes it our own by its use of melodies, tempo, bassline and beat. I wish their was more of this - say like 'I wanna be your girl' by KT, 'So Contagious' by Shola, 'Bad Girls' by Ms Dynamite and KT and 'The one', 'Right now' and 'So sure' by Sadie.

big up bun-u for the scan. pretty accurate imo

and Mason i'm so GLAD its not the new thing. I know you may not be but hopefully now things will level out and just build into some sort of stability

oh yeah Sick Boy is a badman fo' reaaal lol

 

[MATT MAson]

No, I think it's a good thing too. It is stable, it is developing. I just don't think copying US hip hop is a particularly healthy development.

 

[Tactics]

ok fair enough

No, I think it's a good thing too. It is stable, it is developing. I just don't think copying US hip hop is a particularly healthy development.

we agree then...and I agree on your aping point...my mistake

 

[Logan Sama]

are you really claiming that much ignorance on this? these tracks that are mentioned SOUND like hip-pop/r&b tracks cos they use the same dynamics and usually format (formula) but just a different tempo...I'm sure I explained this earlier and I'm sure you know this

the track as a whole just feels UK though cos of its 'imperfections' if you follow (overall mastering level, mismatched drums, tempo, off key singing, tinchy's unique rhyming style)? US tracks that do the same aren't 'perfect' just more polished...obviously from experience

now a track like above does more or less the same thing BUT makes it our own by its use of melodies, tempo, bassline and beat. I wish their was more of this - say like 'I wanna be your girl' by KT, 'So Contagious' by Shola, 'Bad Girls' by Ms Dynamite and KT and 'The one', 'Right now' and 'So sure' by Sadie.

big up bun-u for the scan. pretty accurate imo

and Mason i'm so GLAD its not the new thing. I know you may not be but hopefully now things will level out and just build into some sort of stability

oh yeah Sick Boy is a badman fo' reaaal lol

How in the name of Christ does Breakway sound like hip hop.

I have asked about a half dozen times for ONE SINGLE SOLITARY hip hop record that sounds like Breakaway. Just one.

All I get are hackneyed comparisons due to someone rapping inbetween a girl singing a hook. If anything that is RnB influenced, which is what happened to commercial hip hop in the last few years. But still, the act of adding melodies and a female hook is in no way whatsoever the domain of hip hop. The beat doesn't sound like hip hop.

Making sweeping generalisations with absolutely no facts to back them up and merely opinions and hunches I expect to be the domain of RWD forum. Not here.

 

[MATT MAson]

"All I get are hackneyed comparisons due to someone rapping inbetween a girl singing a hook"

I don't understand, why do you need more than that? That's basically it. That's what I was saying. Girly hooks and r&b/hip hop melodies are making grime sound bland and boring. Breakaway is a good example of this problem. End of.

Do you really need someone to do an in depth, forensic CSI: Grimescene investigation that perfectly matches this song to some specific hip hop song? No one is accusing anyone of plagarism here. Just of making formulaic music. I'm not trying to dodge the burden of proof here, (even though the idea of proving outright one song sounds like another is all way to subjective to easily establish proof, as various court cases about plagarism have proved, see Vanilla Ice vs. Queen, etc...) It just seems to me there is no need to go into it seeing as you're pretty much the only person here who doesn't think Breakaway sounds like any hip hop track.

 

[mos dan]

apologies if it's been on here already but there is a 2 page feature in Time Out this week about Grime nights being shut down by the police.

almost identical to the one i pitched to them, that they were interested in running, in december. cheap bastards.

they even got the same (similar) quotes off you bun-u! lol.

leave me alone is a classic, no doubt.

 

[Logan Sama]

"All I get are hackneyed comparisons due to someone rapping inbetween a girl singing a hook"

I don't understand, why do you need more than that? That's basically it. That's what I was saying. Girly hooks and r&b/hip hop melodies are making grime sound bland and boring. Breakaway is a good example of this problem. End of.

Do you really need someone to do an in depth, forensic CSI: Grimescene investigation that perfectly matches this song to some specific hip hop song? No one is accusing anyone of plagarism here. Just of making formulaic music. I'm not trying to dodge the burden of proof here, (even though the idea of proving outright one song sounds like another is all way to subjective to easily establish proof, as various court cases about plagarism have proved, see Vanilla Ice vs. Queen, etc...) It just seems to me there is no need to go into it seeing as you're pretty much the only person here who doesn't think Breakaway sounds like any hip hop track.

So someone rapping inbetween a female hook is hip hop?

And what the fuck are "Hip Hop melodies"?

This is descending into farce.

 

[MATT MAson]

Someone rapping between a female hook can and often is construed as hip hop, yes.

Hip hop melodies are melodies that sound like formulaic hip hop melodies, y'know? Like the kind of melodies you might find on a formulaic hip hop track.

Rather than doing a highly suspect and subjective discography of hip hop tracks that sound like Breakaway, which we'll be here arguing about for another million posts, and which will prove absolutely nothing, let's just see a quick show of hands.

Is there anyone else here, other than my esteemed colleague Mr. Sama, who doesn't think Breakaway sounds a bit like a hip hop record?

 

[mos dan]

So someone rapping inbetween a female hook is hip hop?

And what the fuck are "Hip Hop melodies"?

This is descending into farce.

give me girly hooks all day long blud. 'Voice of Grime' was one of the best comps out last year. If everything was sounding like that I'd be worried. It, um, isn't though.

 

[Logan Sama]

Now it is "a bit like a Hip Hop record"

Well by the very definition of popular opinion, any black male rapping on a beat is considered hip hop.

I don't want an extensive back catalogue, and again you are doing what you always do which is make attempts at sarcastic exaggerated mockeries of what I am saying.

I want ONE Hip hop record which sounds like Breakaway. Just one. It doesn't have to be in the same key, it doesn't have to be the exact same beat. It has to sound like it. Find me one. No more no less than one. A not unreasonable request given how much it CLEARLY sounds like a "formulaic hip hop record".

 

[mistersloane]

I hated 'Breakaway' when I first heard it - but after hearing it repeatedly ( good plug Logan! ) I'm really impressed with it, the bass is surprisingly heavy, and it's I think what's termed as 'a grower'. The boys proved themselves to be able to compete in the major marketplace with a tune that should, by rights, go in the pop charts. It doesn't sound anything like any hiphop I've ever heard, it has grime influences while sticking to a strictly pop formula, as a musician it's a challenge to make stuff that's commercial, it's very hard to do. If anything I think one of them boys is kinda into Keane or Coldplay or something, it's got a very stadium feel to it, almost soft metal.

 

[Tactics]

oh Lord

Logan man - you don't need titles to know that it apes a generic hip-pop/rnb format that has been shovelled out of the states for years. that's the point. if you want titles look at your station's playlist...what's out (I don't listen to daytime radio)? take 'pac's life' ft. ashanti, tracks like that

actually to settle it (can't believe this is happening) go and ask Poisonous Dart

the tinchy track is fine - just a hybrid - are you really gonna deny that? stupid question lol...

yeah RS like that soft metal 'epic' sound. so does Scorcher and The Movement. the guitar riffs and that. I do blame Dipset for this slightly (not tryna start another argument lol!)

anyone got any word on Nolay's mixcd? and is that Shotz 'Thunderbolt' tune gonna hit shelves anytime soon?

actually when are your mixcd's coming out Sama?

 

[tom pr]

I think another thing to consider is the rigid aherence to the verse-chorus-verse structure. Listening to Rules and Regulations today for the first time it seemed that all the tunes were like that. I think that compares unfavourably to Creeper I and II which had a lot of real long sustained flows in it.

See, I want to like Rules and Regulations; it's full of undisputably good songs, but it just doesn't excite me in the same way previous Roll Deep stuff does. And I think you just hit the nail on the head as to why. One of the things I love most about grime (and MCing in general, but there aren't so many hiphop MCs that go on like that now) is when you get sustained periods of rapping, where it just feels like you'd have to physically tear the MC away from the mic to get them to stop. Like they just can't stop themselves. Obviously you get that vibe on radio, but also Wiley on Nightbus Dubplate or the Graveyard freestyle (I'm assuming that's the one you're on about, off Creeper 1) and Dizzee on something like Give You More. There's just nothing that exciting or unique on Rules and Regulations, it's all so structured and consise and restricted. Which isn't what grime should be about, I don't think.