Dylan: I just don't get it, and I never will

dominic

Beast of Burden
joeschmo said:
the Beatles always had the music hall thing going on, which worked as a change of pace/oddly disjunctive element, but couldn't have stood on its own...

let's take the point further, and say that the "music hall" element is the worst and most annoying aspect of the beatles sound

joeschmo said:
the Who... not sure really... is it music hall again? That weird desire to write conceptual song suites?

i'm not a fan of the rock opera or conceptual song suites -- i.e., i like the music, but dislike all the window dressing

joeschmo said:
The Stones I would call least English of all... they had that early Lady Jane/As Tears Go By aristocratic thing going on, that seemed to draw on some kind of tradition of English balladry, but that died pretty much after 66 for them...

stones are easily my favorite classic rock band

i'd say that the best 60s rock stuff is (1) the rolling stones, (2) sly stone, (3) the who, (4) the kinks, (5) jimi hendrix, (6) love, (7) stooges -- plus all the "pebbles" stuff -- so pretty evenly divided b/w uk and us acts, with the proviso that best us acts were led by black musicians (i.e., argument seems to be that uk artists were somehow able to appropriate black american music in a more creative and "better" way than white americans)

and i suppose the beatles too -- but i dislike almost as many beatles songs as i love -- though 65/66 beatles up through "strawberry fields" in early 67 is excellent
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
i think blissblogger once remarked on how he liked all the local color of the late beatles material -- references to different places in liverpool, references to "english" stuff like crumpets and tea, etc

but i'd have to disagree -- i think the local references and dialect detract from the universality of the music, and much of it strikes me as just plain silly and stupid -- see e.g., almost all the lyrics on the abbey road album

which isn't to say that i don't value local references and language in dancehall or hip hop -- or prefer dance music that is rooted in a particular place over more "vapid" and "cosmopolitan" sounds

but when it comes to rock n roll, i prefer lyrics that are "universal" in content

so i guess my position here is inconsistent
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
joeschmo said:
I always think of Britpop as being an attempt to reconstruct an entirely English rock tradition, independent of America.

but the idea of a non-American rock is surely a non-starter to say the least...

think Britpop was specifically concerned about the Seattle sound... a rock sound which Englishness could have no purchase on whatsoever I suppose

I don't know if I would quite see Beatles/Stones/Who as being refracted <i>through</i> English cultural tradition, so much as simply having an unavoidable distance from America/American music that allowed them to synthesize/fantasize/mess around with it.

Not sure I'm seeing the difference...

I would say more that English cultural tradition was a minor element in their sound... the Beatles always had the music hall thing going on, which worked as a change of pace/oddly disjunctive element, but couldn't have stood on its own...

yeh, but no-one's saying it could have stood on its own, just that it isn't simply reflecting America back to itself.... I'd say the English thing is massive with the Beatles throughout... it saturates most of the lyrics, the cadences, the grain of the voices... The Beatles barely sound r and r AT ALL... there sound is so not dependent on rhythm... or blues for that matter, except in a massively uh refracted way...


the Who... not sure really... is it music hall again? That weird desire to write conceptual song suites?

All kinds of things, but Pop Art partly... the English thing has often involved bringing to bear non-musical elements that are non-literary...

The Stones I would call least English of all... they had that early Lady Jane/As Tears Go By aristocratic thing going on, that seemed to draw on some kind of tradition of English balladry, but that died pretty much after 66 for them...

yeh, the Stones became more American as they progressed... Maybe Satanic Majesties the last album that flirted with English imagery?

Actually occurs to me re: Dom's comments on universality that what the 60s Brit bands did with r and r is make it universal precisely by treating it as a neutral background for their own fixations and obsessions... i.e. not dwelling on its Americanness....

trying to think of dylan you shoulr try... maybe John Wesley Harding... you'd probably hate the music, its very "rural," heh," but the lyric writing is his most compressed, not Beat at all...

no lol i can cope with some rural things... I actually do like the Band for instance..

Genuinely, thanks for the suggestion... I think people have assumed that my saying i don't get it is merely rhetorical or wilful... certainly some of the latter, in that yeh I don't really WANT to get Dylan, but then I didn't want to get the Beatles either, but I did in the end.... but no there is some level of GENUINE puzzlement...
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
dominic said:
i can't for the life of me recall why . . . . but when i was in law school, somebody there gave a lecture during lunch one day about "jews in rock" -- dissecting the lyrics of a leonard cohen song and, yes, dylan's "all along the watchtower"

evidently the lyrics of "watchtower" recall isaiah 21???

"There must be some way out of here," said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief."

"Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth.
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth."

"No reason to get excited," the thief he kindly spoke,
"There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.
"But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate
"So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."

All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too.

Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl,
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl.


lol, but this kind of thing is exactly what I meant by portentous doggerel really... it's like a cross between sixth form poetry and nonsense lyrics a la Whiter Shade of Pale...
 

Woebot

Well-known member
Watched the rest of the Dylan documentary in parts over the weekend.

Firstly I have to remark as to k-punk and blissblogger's bemusement in the face of Dylan, I don't understand what there ISN'T to get! I do respect their opinions and I know theres a great deal of integrity to their positions on it (I mean both Mark and Simon have followed and praised the denaturalised in music, the chrome, the plastic and more crucially the desubstantiated) but laying aside questions of the music's construction of its sonic as manifest and it has to be remarked that Dylan's music comes from as good a place as music can come.

I found the whole preamble to Scorcese's documentary fascinating. Dylan's blankness, his emptiness. Normally this lack of true musical character is kind of lamentable. S'funny to consider from a archetypically Rockist perspective, Dylan scores very lowly as the worst kind of rootless charlatan. However, there's such a sublime vacuity to the way in which he (as Ginsberg remarks he "becomes a column of air"), the way his charlatanism and naked opportunism leads him onto a path where he disappears and becomes a vehicle for whatever seeps through him.

I have to confess I found the late protest stuff almost unbearably powerful. The period at which he returns to Minneapolis from New York, initiated by his "Crossroads" experience and closed by the speech he gives to the bigwigs upon receipt of the Thomas Payne prize is marked by a snowballing intensity. At first, though great, he doesn't quite convince but by the end "A Hard Rains Gonna Fall" I was gobsmacked. Yeah I was really surprised by my own reaction because I'd always written off his earlier folk period and based my evaluation of him on Bringing It All Back Home > Highway 61 Revisited > Blonde on Blonde, but that early stuff KICKED ASS one hundred which ways. And dont be sidetracked by the bloody lyrics, i mean who cares (?) the delivery is EVERYTHING. That naked conviction and bloody intensity.

And I couldnt help but fall back on the most meagre of personal experiences. Firstly that the reaction to MIA's LP was pretty much exactly like the take people had to Dylan's electric work in the sense that, essentially both reactions were a defense of something as tricksy and mercurial as integrity. Folk integrity, because lets face it, sticking up for Grime>Crunk>Funk over what MIA represented was an archetypically "folksy" thing to do. I know Scorcese and practically everyone other critic under the sun invites one to pour scorn on the poor, wee, precious folk movement's reaction to Dylan going electric, but for the first time, really checking out the lambent power of those acoustic tracks with their pointedness, their specificity (all the later lyrical stuff is like blowing bubbles innit) well I really identitfied with all those pissed off people in Leeds and Bradford.

Yeah, what a fucking sell-out, and especially as when he buggered off there was practically no one as intensely EMOTIONALLY electric left, cos what he had been doing was dignifying the whole shebang. The rest of the folk/protest movement were hopeless. Pete Seeger comes over like a primary school teacher, the guy from the New York City Ramblers (sweet dude BTW) like your gauche cousin and Peter of Pater, Paul and Mary, well he was a total drip by comparison. Yes, Dylan lent the whole thing a gravitas, and they pimped off his aura, traded on a little second-hand cool. Added to which I thought all those later tracks which I used to cherish (and we got to hear quite a bit of "the classic" records) sounded by comparison floppy and kind of enfeebled. Aw what a mess!

My old mucker Luke Heronbone is gonna fucking hate me for dragging him into this too, but I kept flashing on the similarity of the process of Heronbone to that early period of Dylan's intensity and fecundity. I mean I could choose a thousand different examples, but why not this one? See Dylan almost certainly KNEW he was some kind of charlatan, that he was chancer, and he was kind of at once embarassed and gleeful that he managed (as he saw it) to "get away with it". I don't think he probably saw himself as a "talented person" (like, thank fuck....) and that he was getting away with it AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE was giving him even greater recklessness. It all feeds into the dynamic, he's in a state of near-insanity, every waking hour performing in his relations with other people in a way of magick abstraction (almost certainly cranked up by Marijuana which fosters this kind of divorcement from your manifestation, allows you to concentrate on your EFFECT and manipulate it). That he's making music whilst in this space, well its all part and parcel of the accumulation and generation of aura.

The thing about people who feel like they're getting away with it, is that the temptation grows to just throw up your hands and declare: "It ain't me babe" ("...No, no, no, it aint me babe, it aint me you're looking for babe" for the Dylan-deprived). As in: I took you in, you've been had, don't look to me for answers. Or like the last lines in Smoked Glass upon being prompted for his book list: "the answers aren/t even intersting... 1.maybe 20, how am i supposed to know?" (Ha which makes me laugh!) And it is, unfortunately the inevitable conclusion, because the other track leads swiftly to madness and certain death, and if you're brilliant enough to REALLY get to that hot place, then you're smart enough to be able to save your own skin.
 
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luka

Well-known member
The thing about people who feel like they're getting away with it, is that the temptation grows to just throw up your hands and declare: "It ain't me babe" ("...No, no, no, it aint me babe, it aint me you're looking for babe"

which incidentlly is exactly what his book is all about, all those reclusive periods, trying to disown the myth.

its also worth pointing out a)that theres more to song lyrics than the actual words (i mean, are you so simpleminded that you can't grasp this, ever heard of sound? a large part of poetry is music and with lyrics obviously its an even larger part) and b)theres more than one type of dylan lyirc, obvioulsy all that 'on his shoulder he had a siamese cat' stuff sounds stupid but thats only one small part of his ouvre anyway.
 

blissblogger

Well-known member
slowly recovering after having been shocked into silence by luka's uncharacteristic outburst of canonic reverence...

stepping away from the pro and con a bit to more macro level, it does struck me that the fervour for dylan seems to be coming from two groups by and large -- the babyboomers who were into him at the time, and then much younger youth who for whatever reason have bought into the whole thing -- in some cases it's a post-Invisible Republic phenomenon, in others i wonder if it's cos the youth's parents were actual dylan fans and they were exposed to it like that

whereas people me and kpunk's age group -- postpunk to Smiths/acieeed -- seem to be much less likely to have forged that connection with dylan's work

and again i have to repeat, when i were a lad, you just never ran into people who were dylan nuts. he was never mentioned by bands as a reference point. being a dylanologist was like this arcane, fusty thing. dylan's dropping off the radar from 1977 to 1990 obviously had a lot to do with the music he was putting out in this period which most dylan fans think dimly of, and also he was a born again christian for a good chunk of that time which wouldn't have endeared him in a postpunk, anti-Reagan era --

in fact the period at which my consciousness of music was formed started not long after a famous 1978 piece by Tony Parsons/Julie Burchill on Dylan called 'Take Your God and Stuff Him' -- i never actually saw, but read the sequel, on James Dean -- 'Take Your God and Bury Him'.

but as i say you just never ran into people who were into dylan, you never heard his stuff on the radio, new bands never cited him as a reference point -- things like beatles and stones were inescapable, but dylan was quite escapable

i was really surprised when one of my friends in 85 turned out to be a fan of highway 61 and that era of stuff, i was like 'but what do you like about it?'. she tried to explain, in fact mentioned this 'it's about the sound of the words' thing come to think of it. [but that's the case with all rock isn't, really?]

the other thought i had about this is that "getting into Dylan" is a bit like a microcosm of "getting into rock/pop/hip hop/music", in the sense that -- there's lots of people who like particular rock or pop or rap or whatever records but they don't "get into" the whole apparatus of distinctions, debates, X versus Y, up phases versus down phases, the Grand Narrative of rock-etc -- the whole apparatus of fandom and dissension and critical thinking which doesn't necessarily involve reading critics, just having opinions -- with "getting into" there's a sense that "the more you put into it, the more you get out of it"

likewise with dylan: there is an initial step people make where they get into the artist, embrace the whole narrative, the persona shifts, the game he played with his audience, the mystique ... the ups and down of his muse, people making the case for undervalued records versus other ones

it's like a whole world in itself, a system -- with the various bumps and shifts corresponding (not literally but serving the same mytho-narrative function) to the bumps and shifts in rock history -- 67, punk, grunge, etc etc

with dylan i'm a bit like the person who likes various rock/pop records but is not invested in the whole game/apparatus of it all... 'what's the big deal, why are you getting so worked up'

for instance i pulled out Biograph at the weekend out of curiosity and had to concede that various things like 'visions of johanna' do weave an incredible atmosphere... but then there's all this other ropy-sounding rootsy ramshackle-rollicking kinda stuff, pretty much the definition of all i'm not interested in hearing from music... and since i've not joined "the game of dylan" as it were, i'm not going to be interested in following it through to that other ... and the compensation of the poetry or the charisma is not enough for the musical deficits

but if dylan had been any sort of presence at all during the period when my strongest connections with music were forged -- 78 to 88, roughly -- who knows i might have joined the game, made that initial step of cathexis

* * *

re woebot's points, yeah that is what's fascinating to me, that dylan's whole thing is basically a fraud or to put it more nicely reinvention of the self -- you can see Richard Hell or Johnny Rotten in that --
the title Biograph is quite interesting in that, given his early falsified life story .. even his name is not his own

and then what's weird is you have this two phantasms of integrity fighting it out -- dylan pursuing his idea of true-to-my-self-as-perversity versus the folk movement, which is itself a totally constructed tradition, constructed in opposition to commercial mass culture...
 

joeschmo

Well-known member
<i>but the idea of a non-American rock is surely a non-starter to say the least...</i>

I agree. One reason why Britpop was so shite.

<I>Not sure I'm seeing the difference...</i>

What I'm trying to say is, I think the way in which these bands' nationality came to bear was not through them working out of any particularly English musical tradition. In terms of form, they were entirely American, aside from things like the music hall stuff. Inasmuch as Englishness was a factor in their music, it was a much more diffuse matter of lyrical references, attitudes, and the like.

<i>The Beatles barely sound r and r AT ALL... there sound is so not dependent on rhythm</i>

I think this is more necessity than cultural choice tho. With a crap drummer, and two of the best melody writers ever, it wouldn't have been smart to be too dependent on rhythm :) Doesn't make them less rock n' roll tho. "Dependent on rhythm" is a very very very loose definition of r'n'r.

<i>I actually do like the Band for instance.</i>

It's hard for me to see how you can possibly like the Band and hate Dylan. They're sort of like Dylan without the attitude. I like them but there's a fundamental prissiness about them. They have a much more reverential attitude to the past than he does. Sort of like a living museum project.

<i>the other thought i had about this is that "getting into Dylan" is a bit like a microcosm of "getting into rock/pop/hip hop/music"</i>

If you're saying Dylan is a genre unto himself, I don't know what higher praise there could be!

I don't think it's an all-or-nothing proposition at all tho. I think there is only one perfect Dylan record, which is Highway 61. Then there are about 5 superb albums just beneath that. Then another 5 pretty good ones. And then about 20 that are by and large dross. Not everyone who likes Dylan is a maniac.
 

luka

Well-known member
yeah liking the band and not liking dylan! eh!


i watched pat garrett and billy the kid last night when i couldn't sleep. now thats a film, wow! dylan has zero screen presence, very thin, gawky, no charisma nothing, not that his character was like, one of the big boys, i just found it interesting, hes like an anti-presence. i still love the music though.
 
Guilty

K-punk I see no reason why you can’t justifiably hold your point of view. I neither hate nor deify Dylan-and do think he’s rather good. I just happen to enjoy Dylan and connect with some of his music ethereally. Maybe it speaks to channels of aspiration and ideal that I just happen to hold. I agree with Luka that it would not be illuminating to separate the words from music etc to press the case for Dylan. Anyway, I don’t think you have to get Dylan, and you don’t seem that bothered if you don’t so I will not bother to source some songs for you. Unless, of course, you request.

I am however, slightly worn, but not surprised by the swathe of people that have taken a rather reactionary response to your position and it is this I find more interesting about this thread.

It is rather plain to observe that some posts here are borne out of a frustration in the minds of some, that the hopes and desire of a generation were not successfully transferred on to the next or that hard fought and won advances were spurned by their unthankful descendents. Almost like that that the 30/40’s generation have of the 50’s/60’s generations. The ‘I fought in the war for you blah blah blah’-no disrespect to the War veterans more the wider over-aching philosophy that demands we as a society or world remain static.

I suspect that some in this generation practice an almost zealous and fallacious worship that perceives our present society politically as being one of moral redundancy and social degradation-just as much as they were viewed by the generation before them. We hear a lot about values and respect as if these are politically vacuous and endangered social themes in our time although young people and a generation of people teen wards upwards do believe in change and this is at times crudely and cruelly exhibited by Live8, G8, Stop the War et al.

I believe that this generation have gracefully (at times) inherited and do want to bequeath on the next generation those gains that have been won by the last. Dylan embodied much of that for a generation and I respect that; it just wasn’t my music or my generation so it needn’t have an equal currency for ‘us’. But as I began I just happen to enjoy some of it.

The bottom line is that our keyboards, monitors and interface may differ, but our wiring is the same. And apologies for breaking one of my own rules, but in the immortal words of B Gibb ‘…and we got nothing and we got nothing and we got nothing to be guilty of….’

intertonic
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
Matt .. given that the whole thing was perfectly ghastly, the fact that Dylan was the leading light of the protest scene is saying very little... it's a bit like being the best Mills and Boon novelist... :) (seeing footage of that period makes me glad that I 'missed out' on the early sixties...)

On the Band versus Dylan... well, I wouldn't say that they are my favourite group, but I can see some relation between, for instance, what Marcus writes in Mystery Train and their music... ghosts of old america, clapped out carnies, outsiders at the edge of town... whereas, for me, there's always a massive shortfall between the hype about Dylan and the actual music... and, y'know, they can sing in tune and play in time, that gives them an advantage over Bobby :)

There was someone on BBC Radio London the other day saying, more or less, that ONLY Dylan would have justified a four-hour documentary... A caller rang in and suggested Bowie and was ridiculed... Hah! Glass Spider! As if Dylan's career was completely impeccable, as if he is the only pop figure worthy of the analysis. But surely Dylan is THE most over-exposed figures in pop history... what new angles did Scorsese produce? None in the second part (the only one I saw). Whereas a 20 hour television adaptation of Rip It Up and Start Again... that would be worth seeing...

My feeling is that canoninaztion is bad all round... not necessarily because it's false, but because it produces cultural stultification... once something achieves that quality of the untouchable, mandatory, it is well nigh impossible to encounter it as odd, weird, fugitive...
 

henry s

Street Fighting Man
"My feeling is that canoninaztion is bad all round... not necessarily because it's false, but because it produces cultural stultification... once something achieves that quality of the untouchable, mandatory, it is well nigh impossible to encounter it as odd, weird, fugitive"

well put...could just as easily apply to Frank Gehry's architecture...
 

rewch

Well-known member
k-punk said:
There was someone on BBC Radio London the other day saying, more or less, that ONLY Dylan would have justified a four-hour documentary... A caller rang in and suggested Bowie and was ridiculed... Hah! Glass Spider! As if Dylan's career was completely impeccable, as if he is the only pop figure worthy of the analysis. But surely Dylan is THE most over-exposed figures in pop history... what new angles did Scorsese produce? None in the second part (the only one I saw). Whereas a 20 hour television adaptation of Rip It Up and Start Again... that would be worth seeing...

My feeling is that canoninaztion is bad all round... not necessarily because it's false, but because it produces cultural stultification... once something achieves that quality of the untouchable, mandatory, it is well nigh impossible to encounter it as odd, weird, fugitive...

have to agree re. scorsese... the q & a (or rather just the a since we only heard about 1 q) was old... obviously there was a lot of unseen footage... but if you've seen don't look back then on top of that it was just the unseen footage & it didn't really justify that length... but clearly the most important 2 bits were one of the students in the 1st part asking some of the people why they didn't just leave if they hated it so much & pointing out that dylan just does what he wants... in the 2nd part joan baez said much the same... he didn't invite her up on stage... he just moved on... for what it's worth & whether we like it or not & for better or worse... you have to admire his sheer fucking independence
 

joeschmo

Well-known member
<i>It is rather plain to observe that some posts here are borne out of a frustration in the minds of some, that the hopes and desire of a generation were not successfully transferred on to the next</i>

I don't know who you think you're talking about, but just for the record, I'm a mere babe of 34

<i>they can sing in tune and play in time, that gives them an advantage over Bobby</i>

Christ, how trad :)

<i>My feeling is that canoninaztion is bad all round... not necessarily because it's false, but because it produces cultural stultification...</i>

Sure, but just blindly reacting against canonization isn't much use either. Never judge an artist by their biggest fans.
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
<i>they can sing in tune and play in time, that gives them an advantage over Bobby</i>

Christ, how trad :)

lol

<i>My feeling is that canoninaztion is bad all round... not necessarily because it's false, but because it produces cultural stultification...</i>

Sure, but just blindly reacting against canonization isn't much use either. Never judge an artist by their biggest fans.

I know, I wasn't recommending that.... (although i think blindly reacting against canonization is good for artists to do...there's far too much reverence and respect in pop these days)... i just meant that it can make it harder to respond to the canonized artist...
 

Woebot

Well-known member
k-punk said:
Matt .. given that the whole thing was perfectly ghastly, the fact that Dylan was the leading light of the protest scene is saying very little... it's a bit like being the best Mills and Boon novelist... :) (seeing footage of that period makes me glad that I 'missed out' on the early sixties...)

(guffaw) :p
 

zoilus

Member
blissblogger said:
it does struck me that the fervour for dylan seems to be coming from two groups by and large -- the babyboomers who were into him at the time, and then much younger youth who for whatever reason have bought into the whole thing -- in some cases it's a post-Invisible Republic phenomenon, in others i wonder if it's cos the youth's parents were actual dylan fans and they were exposed to it like that

whereas people me and kpunk's age group -- postpunk to Smiths/acieeed -- seem to be much less likely to have forged that connection with dylan's work

But Simon aren't you really saying that the Dylan fervour comes from everybody BUT your age group? (And actually it's your UK age group because here in North America, people your age - which is about the same as or a couple years older than mine - seem to like Dylan just fine, thanks.) In other words it's a deliberate rejection of your elders' idol. Which is fine but it seems to be translated into some resultant objectivity whereas the rest of us are somehow duped.

All these British people vociferating against Dylan is an odd spectacle. Surely it's blatantly obvious how absolutely huge an influence Dylan was on, for instance, Syd Barrett and Lou Reed and David Bowie, in terms of imaginative expression, from lyrics to vocal style to art of noise? Without Dylan, I don't think glam would have been remotely similar. His "electric" period was exactly the same break with the "organic" that glam was from, for instance, the Stones. Which is of course what pissed the folk revivalists off so much, his pop-art, nouvelle-vague, plastic-fantastic turn.

The trouble may be that Dylan's influence was so massive that it's difficult even to see. Compare rock songwriting - and actually basically any songwriting - pre-1964-65 to rock songwriting after that. He's the obvious catalyst for the Beatles' Rubber Soul/Revolver stylistic shift for instance. I don't know if there's a single figure in pop history whose influence is so sweeping. If you don't get that I can only imagine you're choosing not to get it.

The coherent anti-Dylan argument, I think, would be a pure pop-positive argument, saying he ruined rock by turning it intellectual. I don't think there's much of anybody around here who could back that up with a consistent roster of tastes, tho, and least of all the post-punk partisans.

The most interesting post here by far is Woebot's saying that the MIA argument is like the folk-versus-rock Dylan argument, which I think is exactly right, and it's terrifically bold of WB to say he might find himself on the folkies' side in that case, tho of course I'd line up on the other side - but the other brilliant thing about Dylan is he shows the ways in which folk music was never the humdrum straightforward thing the folk revivalists made it out to be (Greil Marcus, for all his bull, has been useful to emphasize that).
 
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k-punk

Spectres of Mark
zoilus said:
All these British people vociferating against Dylan is an odd spectacle. Surely it's blatantly obvious how absolutely huge an influence Dylan was on, for instance, Syd Barrett and Lou Reed and David Bowie, in terms of imaginative expression, from lyrics to vocal style to art of noise? Without Dylan, I don't think glam would have been remotely similar.

Not particularly interested in Barrett, but can't see the connection any way beyond the fact that they were both songwriters... Reed, I guess Dylan was an influence, maybe on lyrics, but as to vocal style, can't see that either... Bowie, I suppose Dylan was one influence amongst many... but surely glam was as much a revolt against the influence of Dylan as a continuing expression of it? In any case, Simon's point would still hold... in the fabulous period of 78-84 (greatest period for pop ever) Dylan's presence, if he had one at all, was mediated... No-one talked about him directly... Simon's right, when Nick Cave started talking about Dylan again circa 84, there was a real frission of the forbidden and the forgotten...

The trouble may be that Dylan's influence was so massive that it's difficult even to see. Compare rock songwriting - and actually basically any songwriting - pre-1964-65 to rock songwriting after that. He's the obvious catalyst for the Beatles' Rubber Soul/Revolver stylistic shift for instance. I don't know if there's a single figure in pop history whose influence is so sweeping. If you don't get that I can only imagine you're choosing not to get it.

Problem with this is it ignores the influence of Beatles etc on Dylan; it wasn't a one way street. But if it's all about influence, fine, maybe some things I like wouldn't have existed without Dylan. Doesn't mean that I have to see in Dylan what they did, or that I should be expected to appreciate Dylan for himself. Lots of things wouldn't have happened without skiffle, but that doesn't particularly move me either. This is a bit like Rememberance Sunday or something...

Point is the historical anchoring of this narrative: for the Dylanists, everything is anchored to the sixties. For me, yeh, hats off to Dylan if he had some distant tangential role in inspiring the great pop of 78-84 ... but ask me to be interested in Dylan for himself and I just can't be...

The coherent anti-Dylan argument, I think, would be a pure pop-positive argument, saying he ruined rock by turning it intellectual. I don't think there's much of anybody around here who could back that up with a consistent roster of tastes, tho, and least of all the post-punk partisans.

Well, it'd be a strange sense of 'intellectual' :)

The most interesting post here by far is Woebot's saying that the MIA argument is like the folk-versus-rock Dylan argument, which I think is exactly right, and it's terrifically bold of WB to say he might find himself on the folkies' side in that case, tho of course I'd line up on the other side - but the other brilliant thing about Dylan is he shows the ways in which folk music was never the humdrum straightforward thing the folk revivalists made it out to be (Greil Marcus, for all his bull, has been useful to emphasize that).

But as Simon pointed out, it's a bit of a false opposition, since both the folkies and Dylan were fighting over authenticity, Dylan cleaving to an existential authenticity, the folkies a formal authenticity...
 

soundslike1981

Well-known member
I love everything up through 'Bringin it All Back Home,' like 'New Morning' and 'Nashville Skyline,' hate all the long-winded "poetic" rock stuff.
 
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