The demise of rock

Buick6

too punk to drunk
Tyro said:
The next generation of enthusiastic kids will keep it alive.When I was a teenager in the 80's I spent a lot of time listening to garage band music and psychedelia from the 60's and virtually ignored a lot of the innovative music of the time.That music connected with me as a teenager and I didn't care that it wasn't new or ground breaking.

I am now a middle aged Grime fan who wonders why kids want to hang around outside the Astoria all day!

Yr not Siimon Reynolds under yet another InterNerd pseudonym are ya?

What about Fatboy Slim, and have you heard Edan's garage-band psychadelia hiphop? Fookin blows! I bet money there will be grime interpretations of the Remains and Sonics choons! I'll bet cash money! And have you heard this obscure UK band 7+7is? Awesome!
 

Tyro

The Kandy Tangerine Man
Buick6 said:
Yr not Siimon Reynolds under yet another InterNerd pseudonym are ya?

What about Fatboy Slim, and have you heard Edan's garage-band psychadelia hiphop? Fookin blows! I bet money there will be grime interpretations of the Remains and Sonics choons! I'll bet cash money! And have you heard this obscure UK band 7+7is? Awesome!

I am not Simon Reynolds.I have only heard a couple of Edan tunes and they reminded me very much of De La's ''Three Feet High And Rising''{An LP I went nuts over back in the day}.I have to admit that the thought of a Grime/Sonics track gets me much more exited.I have my fingers crosed with regards to that!

I could see the Ruff Sqwad crossing over to a rock audience given the opportunity.Some of their music has a definite rock influence {''1999'' and ''Move'' for example} and live they have the energy to drive a crowd to a moshing frenzy.

Thanks for the tip on 7+7is.I will keep an open ear for them.
 

DJL

i'm joking
I hope and pray every day that music genres will come together as it seems to be the only real way forward in terms of anything new and exciting happening imo. Music is at its most exciting for me when there is some kind of movement behind it like punk or illegal rave had. When people stop fighting amongst themselves and work out a common cause everything starts moving. It feels like we've been stuck in limbo for years now and its driving me mad!

Apathy, as previously mentioned, is the problem I think. No one has any balls to put their neck on the line due to not really caring about anything beyond whether Eastenders is on, that alcohol is available and Dominos are operating. I'm hoping at some point soon something will break in our collective conciousness and we'll realise that this can't be the peak of human existence and that there must be something more. Pyhsically I believe we have peaked as a race for the moment but emotionally we have a lot of catching up to do. Lets hope we don't have to wait too long for this realisation as the longer the delay the bigger the shock of what could be perhaps.

The Happy Mondays are my favourite 'rock' band for obvious reasons. If modern rock could mutate along the lines of what they did it would be a good start. Kasabian and a few others have tried but seem to be just tribute bands of an era of music rather than taking what was achieved then and running with it.

I love Grime due to its total lack of awareness of how well it is doing in terms of progress along these lines. There is hope yet still.
 
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believekevin

Well-known member
lightning bolt

Lightning Bolt provided me the most recent (albeit a 3 years ago) moment of renewed excitement in a 'rock' format. So many signifiers whipping about in that band: breakbeats, metal riffs, hardcore chugging, the "Providence" aesthetic, homebrew gear...
 

PeteUM

It's all grist
believekevin said:
Lightning Bolt provided me the most recent (albeit a 3 years ago) moment of renewed excitement in a 'rock' format. So many signifiers whipping about in that band: breakbeats, metal riffs, hardcore chugging, the "Providence" aesthetic, homebrew gear...

I've never seen them live but that DVD is incredible.
 

boosted

Active member
The Darkness have just released their second album, so certainly Rock is not dead?! I'm serious there ... "Give me a D ... Give me a 'arkness!" But yeah, other than them, can't say I look out for anything else in the genre ... well, maybe the YeahYeahYeahs, too.
 

dogger

Sweet Virginia
boosted said:
The Darkness have just released their second album, so certainly Rock is not dead?! I'm serious there ... "Give me a D ... Give me a 'arkness!" But yeah, other than them, can't say I look out for anything else in the genre ... well, maybe the YeahYeahYeahs, too.

Hmm. The Darkness. Surely they're just Guns 'n' Roses in a new, slightly camper guise?
And posted on the mtv.com Yeah Yeah Yeahs microsite: 'New Yeah Yeah Yeahs LP Is Conceptual Record About Karen O's Cat'.
Nuff said. :)
 

D84

Well-known member
Yeah, the Darkness are a bit meh... (sorry guys)

The rock album I'm most looking forward to is the new Revolting Cock's album - the details as per this interview sound pretty cool:

It's called "Cocked and Loaded." It's got a lot of crazy people playing on it--Gibby Haynes of the Butthole Surfers sings on three [songs], Jello Biafra from the Dead Kennedys sings on, like, three. There's Rick Nielson of Cheap Trick playing guitar. Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top playing guitar on a few songs.​

But yeah, the rock I listen to most these days is mostly the stuff I used to listen to at school... Of course my taste in music then was utterly impeccable... :)

The best newish rock CD that's made a big impression on me recently was "Oceanic" by Isis - but that's only rock if Tortoise or Napalm Death are rock.
 

tatarsky

Well-known member
ewmy said:
"Originality", "innovation" and "creativity" are by now such totally devalued words in music discussion that to say any music is inherently bad because it is lacking in those vital attributes means nothing any more.

I've just realised that that is one of the most frightening things I've ever read, and utterly confirms my worst fears.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
the old age of rock

tatarsky said:
1) Its the industry’s fault.

2) Society no longer demands decent rock music / No-one’s capable of producing it

the answer is neither (well, closer to 2), it is this:

3) Rock'n'Roll as a genre reached maturity by the 60s and 70s, and is now well past its prime, in a period characterized by apathy, self contentment, and nostalgia for the "glory days".

so no, it's not dead. just old and senile. repeating the same stories of it's youth ad nauseum.

every genre is comprised of a limited palette, in sound, in narrative message, in social context, etc., and has a finite life-span.

the White Stripes is the Wynton Marsalis of Rock. and the others, Yeah Yeah Yeahs or the AWFUL, AWFUL Darkness, etc, are like the rest of the Marsalis family.

but also like jazz, extremely mutated, expanded or abstracted strains of rock music will continue to thrive while the main body deteriorates.



my Feldman collection has also been steadily growing... but that's another topic.
 
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johneffay

Well-known member
confucius said:
the answer is neither (well, closer to 2), it is this:

3) Rock'n'Roll as a genre reached maturity by the 60s and 70s, and is now well past its prime, in a period characterized by apathy, self contentment, and nostalgia for the "glory days".
And people have been saying something similar ever since the late 50's.

This whole discussion reeks of people being 'a certain age' and assuming that just because something has been done well once, when a new generation discovers bands doing something similar it is somehow aesthetically bankrupt.

Whilst I'm always the first to play the 'I've heard it all before' card, I'd never be so sad as to claim that I had some sort of mainline into an authentic rock experience which younger people had missed out on. I'm lucky enough to have been into punk when it first broke, and we were amazed to discover The Stooges, etc. and that The Ramones had been going since the mid-70's. Did this make Punk a some sort of bankrupt nostalgia movement? Not to us it bloody didn't, and I doubt that there's much difference to the 'kids of today' :eek: going to see The White Stripes (who I hate) or The Datsuns (who I don't) :eek:
 

zhao

there are no accidents
johneffay said:
And people have been saying something similar ever since the late 50's.

This whole discussion reeks of people being 'a certain age' and assuming that just because something has been done well once, when a new generation discovers bands doing something similar it is somehow aesthetically bankrupt.

Whilst I'm always the first to play the 'I've heard it all before' card, I'd never be so sad as to claim that I had some sort of mainline into an authentic rock experience which younger people had missed out on. I'm lucky enough to have been into punk when it first broke, and we were amazed to discover The Stooges, etc. and that The Ramones had been going since the mid-70's. Did this make Punk a some sort of bankrupt nostalgia movement? Not to us it bloody didn't, and I doubt that there's much difference to the 'kids of today' :eek: going to see The White Stripes (who I hate) or The Datsuns (who I don't) :eek:

well, my age is 30. I don't know what difference that makes.

I made the above statements based on what I perceive to be happening with a certain cultural phenomenon, namely rock music, and not some kind of "been there done that" sentiment.

I don't know when you discovered punk, but it's hard to argue that today, in 2005, punk, as a music and style, is a "bankrupt nostalgia movement".

and without thinking about it in depth, I would claim that post-punk was the last rock-related sub-genre that was innovative, formally and otherwise. a few exceptions and the extreme, mutant, and "out" strains excepted, everything since is imitation.
 

Buick6

too punk to drunk
Just face it, it's all these ultra-sensitive C86/electronic fey-robot-sexuality types who always try to bring rock down and always fail.

Get over it and just accept that rock sounds, is played better, has more feeling, is naturally more popular and basically ROCKS more than the nose-picking-introsepctive crap you're used to listening to and champion as some sort of failed alternative to the dominant paradigm.

Oh, and hiphop is the NEW ROCk by the way! :cool:
 

johneffay

Well-known member
confucius said:
and without thinking about it in depth, I would claim that post-punk was the last rock-related sub-genre that was innovative, formally and otherwise.
And that's because you're 30. My older brother was saying exactly the same thing about The Who back in '77. Then I pointed out that they used to cover stuff like Eddie Cochran and The Pirates and so it goes on...
a few exceptions and the extreme, mutant, and "out" strains excepted, everything since is imitation.
But that's exactly the point: Rock has always been like that and always will be. Elvis Presley? Just a white boy taking the rough edges off black music to sell it to a mainstream audience. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.
 

johneffay

Well-known member
sapstra said:
Why can people see that jazz died (at least most people)

What people? Those who don't listen to jazz and go to jazz gigs? The whole idea that any form of music which is is still being written and performed is somehow 'dead' is completely ludicrous.
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
I think there is a certain knowingness amongst music fans of all persuasions these days about how world-changing or epochal their favourite artists can be -- i.e. not very. Add in the much smaller youth market, the vast amount of competition for that market's leisure spending, and the even vaster expansion of information about different choices for leisure spending, and you have a recipe for micro markets, smaller followings for bands, and a lack of commitment to and "belief" in bands. You're just not going to get very much in the way of big rock stars, of hegemonic bands that everyone pays attention to (like them or not) and which vast numbers of (young) people follow. You're not going to get another Led Zepp or Clash.

What you do get are big bands (among young people) that people don't take that seriously -- for example Green Day (whom I quite like, but which everyone knows is faux punk, not real punk), or the Darkness (faux metal, done with great expertise but just for laffs, whom I like when the joke is done well). On top of them, there are really big bands who tend to have either carried their audiences for 20 years (U2, whom I like very much) or have crossed over to much older audiences (Coldplay, obviously -- I adore them -- or less obviously, Doves, who are my band of the year).

And bubbling underneath are rock innovators who are unlikely to get that much attention -- usually because they foreswear tunes. I guess the key example is Arcade Fire (who so far have done nothing for me).
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
johneffay said:
What people? Those who don't listen to jazz and go to jazz gigs? The whole idea that any form of music which is is still being written and performed is somehow 'dead' is completely ludicrous.
I guess they reckon the creative spark has gone out of the genre. People have been saying that about rock and jazz for a long time, while "classical" makes a virtue of it. Obviously the latest contender for the Northern Soul "It's not dead, look it's still moving" Prize for Creative Morbidity is dance music, a charge I have no truck with but which is frequently levelled... sometimes with a half decent argument.
 

johneffay

Well-known member
sapstra said:
I would say a genre is dead, when there are no contemporary performers, on which there is at least a big minority within the scene, who see them as innovators and important.
A meaningless definition, as the phrase 'big minority within the scene' can mean anything you want it to. Lots of people within the 'rock scene' see The White Stripes as innovators, does that mean they are, or do such people not count because you don't agree with them?

I know there are still "innovators" within jazz, but i'm a 100% sure that an overwhelming majority of people who consider themselves as jazz lovers, have never even heard of them. Saying this majority is ignorant and can therefore bee ignored again seems ludicrous to me.
I wouldn't say this, but to suggest that one can pass judgement upon the artistic merit of something by appealing to the people who are unaware of it's existence is completely bizarre. By such a criterion, most of the artists discussed upon this board are six feet under!

And now I'll shut up.
 

blissblogger

Well-known member
2stepfan said:
I think there is a certain knowingness amongst music fans of all persuasions these days about how world-changing or epochal their favourite artists can be -- i.e. not very. Add in the much smaller youth market, the vast amount of competition for that market's leisure spending, and the even vaster expansion of information about different choices for leisure spending, and you have a recipe for micro markets, smaller followings for bands, and a lack of commitment to and "belief" in bands. You're just not going to get very much in the way of big rock stars, of hegemonic bands that everyone pays attention to (like them or not) and which vast numbers of (young) people follow. You're not going to get another Led Zepp or Clash.

What you do get are big bands (among young people) that people don't take that seriously -- for example Green Day (whom I quite like, but which everyone knows is faux punk, not real punk), or the Darkness (faux metal, done with great expertise but just for laffs, whom I like when the joke is done well). On top of them, there are really big bands who tend to have either carried their audiences for 20 years (U2, whom I like very much) or have crossed over to much older audiences (Coldplay, obviously -- I adore them -- or less obviously, Doves, who are my band of the year).

And bubbling underneath are rock innovators who are unlikely to get that much attention -- usually because they foreswear tunes. I guess the key example is Arcade Fire (who so far have done nothing for me).

this strikes me as spot-on

also that kind of massive investment of belief in bands has kind of been beaten out of people on account of a/ any individual band b/ rock as a whole, ever actually delivering change

but i suppose what's referenced in the original question, and is integral to the whole concept of genres dying, is the idea of change -- the erosion of the idea that rock needs to keep changing, moving forward --

bit like dylan, "he not busy being born is busy dying"

the lack of that "push things forward" element (except on the furthest remote margins) doesn't seem to be bother that many people,. or is perhaps accepted as the way things are by people now getting into rock for the first time and to not be a significant depletion of rock's other excitements and valuable aspects (art brut have a funny song about that, 'my younger brother just discovered rock'n'roll')
 

martin

----
I just think that a 12 year old kid currently going apeshit over Selfish Cunt and looking beyond his / her 4 walls is as worthy as whatever anyone here felt the first time they heard a jungle bassline kick in, or Crass screaming 'Owe Us a Living', or Jimi Hendrix biting and burning his guitar to shreds, or whatever. I hate young people today and think they're wankers, but I'm 29, it's my job to hate them, they should all be laughing at me and thinking what a sad pathetic twat, still checking out rubbish by OAP hippies like Whitehouse
 
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