DUBSTEP- breaking news, gossip, slander, lies etc

[elgato]

I just want to clarify...

Im all for intelligent and clear discussion of music, and once certain assumptions are agreed upon worthwhile discussion can be had. But I just find there to be too much confusion in people's statements between what is true for them (given their life and their values) and what is 'objectively' true. I have no problem with people saying how they feel about things (for example, what can I say if Woebot has listened and experienced in depth and without prejudice and still gets no emotional/other invigoration from it?!) but i just feel that more clarity is required to ensure that the message is not that it is a statement of fact regardless of where you are coming from

 

[Grievous Angel]

One things for sure -- the dubstep backlash has started today.

It's shame, but I'm just going to ignore it and enjoy all the great music that's coming out.

DMZ in Sheffield tomorrow

 

[Dubquixote]

I like that dubstep has reconnected to the hippy rasta raver complete with ganja vibe and PLUR idealism. For all the faults in those things at their most excessive in an earlier time in the rave continuum, I do feel that the eventual loss of idealism in post-rave music left it rather cold and a re-injection of the organic and the mystical is a welcome development.

 

[Dubquixote]

ps. Loefah and Pokes at Dub War in NYC tomorrow night!

 

[Numbers]

But i wish people would stop trying to dress up their tastes up in quasi-academic bullshit

Innit.

Although I have to admit I quite enjoyed reading my way through the Burial thread. Well, I could not resist laughing at the scene&gender-engineering discourse. Only adding some Habermas quotes on consensus building could have made it even more hilarious.

 

[nomos]

Well, I could not resist laughing at the scene&gender-engineering discourse. Only adding some Habermas quotes on consensus building could have made it even more hilarious.

Can't really see where Habermas fits in but if you'd care to elaborate I'd be interested You don't think scenes make decisions (conscious and not) about what they will or won't allow?

 

[elgato]

I think that discussion is good, and that exchange of ideas and theories is healthy and enjoyable, its just the tone of some people that gets me. I personally enjoyed the burial thread, some really interesting ideas to think about, just the tone (sometimes!)

 

[Freakaholic]

I like that dubstep has reconnected to the hippy rasta raver complete with ganja vibe and PLUR idealism. For all the faults in those things at their most excessive in an earlier time in the rave continuum, I do feel that the eventual loss of idealism in post-rave music left it rather cold and a re-injection of the organic and the mystical is a welcome development.

Im missing the whole "PLUR idealism" in dubstep. Is this something that is apparent in the local, live scene, or are you referring to the music itself?

Personally, Ive never been a fan of the whole PLUR thing, seemed to me something conjured up to give hedonistic ravers justification for breaking laws and to help them feell some sort of equality with the hippies. Personally, Id be happy if this aspect never reached dubstep. However, i am equally excited about the reconnection with the hippy rasta feel.

 

[nomos]

re: dressing up tastes in "quasi-academic bullshit" (I missed that gem)

Like it or not, music theorises on the world around it. Engaging it on that level, in writing, is legitimate. It's also different from just throwing theory at it. If that part doesn't interest you then just ignore it.

Kode 9 summed it up well a while back...

As long as the sounds are heavy, and the writing is accurate, engaged and passionate then I don't see the problem. In the blogsphere, the standard of music writing is pretty high, relegating music magazines to, eh. . .toilet paper. Generally, music writing is no different from music. Some is great, alot is shit. But the opposition [implied] between simply enjoying music on the one hand, and writing about it conceptually on the other is tired and bankrupt. And it is a symptom of the tendency to treat music in a vacuum devoid of any connection to broader cultural tendencies.

 

[elgato]

I have obviously misrepresented my position.

My use of the term 'quasi-academic' was not regarding the throwing of theory at music, but regarding theorising within an inappropriate structure to justify the conclusions and assertions made.

I thoroughly enjoy theorising and discussing everything in life, including music: examining trends and connections and meaning. As I already said I enjoyed the burial thread a fair bit, I found it stimulating reading and the ideas banging about had a lot to be said for them. The issue I have is not with the exercise, but with the manner in which it seems to mostly proceed. Most are not guilty of what im talking about, some seem to be. My problem is that I am very much for discussion, but very very much against the dismissal and detraction of music, artists, scenes on the basis of what essentially boils down to tastes...the dressing up of the subjective as objective. In my opinion, the most productive discussion requires complete clarity of language, complete examination of the precise meaning and scope of all terms used. In my opinion, it also requires expressly stated assumptions and shared foundations, proper demarcation of subject matter, and a specific and definite crux of discussion. I find too many discussions proceed at cross-purposes, with several people arguing several different points, often directly with one another.

I can see that there is a place for the organic development of dialogue and the general sort of banging about of ideas about the sociology of music, but for me that is not the place where the value placed on it should be asserted, especially not in the manner in which it is, without the various structures I have mentioned in place.

I admit my language was overly aggressive, and Im sorry, it does me discredit, but I was just pretty enraged by the vacuous, empty, value-laden assertions of objectivity with which music and musicians that I love and respect were being dismissed.

 

[elgato]

To clarify, in the terms of what Kode 9 said, at no point do I imply that there is an opposition between conceptualising on and enjoying music. It is rather that I am distressed that too often I find the writing/discussion to be insufficiently accurate in its use of language and demarcation of discussion

 

[Poet for Hire]

I like that dubstep has reconnected to the hippy rasta raver complete with ganja vibe and PLUR idealism. For all the faults in those things at their most excessive in an earlier time in the rave continuum, I do feel that the eventual loss of idealism in post-rave music left it rather cold and a re-injection of the organic and the mystical is a welcome development.

What is PLUR idealism?

 

[elgato]

And again, for the purposes of clarity, my rage was primarily levelled at Asger's mate, probably less so Woebot, although I would say that before someone dismisses an entire genre as dead flesh on a widely read and highly influential blog, that it would seem appropriate to investigate it in very substantial detail, and clearly state the nature of the issues had with it. There are a lot of people working very very hard for something they believe in, it seems to me that that fact alone deserves at the very least the respect of a well informed and fully elaborated judgement.

 

[nomos]

@ elgato

I see what you're saying now. I was looking for elaboration on your points and if there was an element of my argument (or 'tone') that you took issue with I was after a direct discussion of it. I actually do look at questions like the ones we were discussing in an academic setting and the first imperative for me is not to simply try to fit a scene/music into a preexisting theoretical framework, but to see what theoretical approaches it suggests, bringing things in as-needed and then adapting them. I agree that arguments based on differences in taste are largely pointless. At the same time, they can also reveal the politics and power struggles that shape a scene since taste is social as well as personal.

 

[nomos]

my rage was primarily levelled at Asger's mate, probably less so Woebot, although I would say that before someone dismisses an entire genre as dead flesh on a widely read and highly influential blog, that it would seem appropriate to investigate it in very substantial detail, and clearly state the nature of the issues had with it. There are a lot of people working very very hard for something they believe in, it seems to me that that fact alone deserves at the very least the respect of a well informed and fully elaborated judgement.

I'm entirely with you on this. Would be nice of Woebot to offer a little more analysis alongside such a colourful diss.

 

[elgato]

@ elgato

I see what you're saying now. I was looking for elaboration on your points and if there was an element of my argument (or 'tone') that you took issue with I was after a direct discussion of it. I actually do look at questions like the ones we were discussing in an academic setting and the first imperative for me is not to simply try to fit a scene/music into a preexisting theoretical framework, but to see what theoretical approaches it suggests, bringing things in as-needed and then adapting them. I agree that arguments based on differences in taste are largely pointless. At the same time, they can also reveal the politics and power struggles that shape a scene since taste is social as well as personal.

Ha yep fair play, i was in fact very much guilty of my own accusations I should certainly have elaborated further on my own colourful diss! It just upsets me to see the work of the people involved in the scene derided. From what I remember, you carried yourself completely appropriately, and even if you didnt, as I say, its primarily when people have negative assertions to make (in a sloppy way) that it gets to me.

 

[Grievous Angel]

Im missing the whole "PLUR idealism" in dubstep. Is this something that is apparent in the local, live scene, or are you referring to the music itself?

It's in the music and it's in the people, in the producers and in the fans. Just look at dubstep forum -- lotta love there.

Personally, Ive never been a fan of the whole PLUR thing, seemed to me something conjured up to give hedonistic ravers justification for breaking laws and to help them feell some sort of equality with the hippies. Personally, Id be happy if this aspect never reached dubstep. However, i am equally excited about the reconnection with the hippy rasta feel.

I think yo just conradicted yourself . PLUR = hippy ideals really. I like it, always have. But then I remember what it was like before rave. It was rubbish in the main, despite the great post-punk music.

 

[Grievous Angel]

I would say that before someone dismisses an entire genre as dead flesh on a widely read and highly influential blog, that it would seem appropriate to investigate it in very substantial detail, and clearly state the nature of the issues had with it. There are a lot of people working very very hard for something they believe in, it seems to me that that fact alone deserves at the very least the respect of a well informed and fully elaborated judgement.

Yeah. But then he's never really liked it . I don't agree with him at all, and I think that post is going to be the thing dubstep haters (they're all comin out of the woodwork now, all over) will refer to for justification of their position. Probably not what he intended. And he's a wonderful man and I'm not going to get annoyed about it.

All I'm saying is that Broadway the Hard Way is the yardstick by which to judge Zappa -- without whom Beefhart's recordings would not exist, so it's a false distinction.

Anyway -- Loefah in NYC, Mala in Sheffield, Kode9, Coki and AppleBlim in south London -- this is going to be one hell of a Friday for dubstep. I want full reports, with pictures!

 

[Dubquixote]

What is PLUR idealism?

Peace Love Unity Respect

it was the mantra of of loved up ravers at the height of ecstasy's spell inside the dance and out

i would also agree that plur is much the same as hippy rasta positivity (one love etc), often taken too far. in the context of dubstep it takes only one visit to a dubstep dance to see what i mean. smiles on people's faces, everybody friendly and happy. and people take that optimism with them when they leave the dance as well i think. i'm sure it won't last but while it does i'm eating it up with a spoon

 

[Freakaholic]

I think yo just conradicted yourself . PLUR = hippy ideals really. I like it, always have. But then I remember what it was like before rave. It was rubbish in the main, despite the great post-punk music.

Terribly sorry, not too clear here. I agree that the PLUR ideal is pretty much the same as the hippy ideal. In fact, to me it seems to be a literal spelling out of the hippy ideals (pun intended, but not good).

However, as opposed to hippies, it seems the ravers' PLUR was more of a justification and less of an actual belief. Personally, I attribute it to the inevitable self-centered hedonism of an ecstacy culture as opposed to the discovery/question-everything mindset of the psychedelic one.

Plus, you just cant trust a raver.