Can UK Hip Hop/Grime Blow Up In The States?

[gabriel]

Whoever mentioned crunk et al had it right--a distinct sound within a larger tradition.

yeah but if you're gonna take that line then hip hop is just "a distinct sound within a larger tradition" as well (funk, soul, jazz, reggae), and what's the point of going down that route?

grime is different from hip hop but has similarities. what's so difficult about that concept?

 

[zhao]

jesus fucking christ. I JUST had this same stupid argument with a buddy of mine last week; who maintains that Grime is basically a form of hiphop.

that's exactly what I said to him: "if it's as you say then funk is just a form of jazz, disco is just a form of funk, and techno is just a form of disco."

I tried to make my case for grime being it's own form by demonstrating the different time-signatures, the off-kilter beats (which are very different from hiphop), and the Jamaican influence in the flows. but he wasn't buying it.

oh well.

 

[Logan Sama]

Listening to a record allows you to critique a record. Listening to a bunch of records allows you to critique the creative output of a scene.

Listening to records does not give you an insight into how that music is presented in a live format. it doesn't give you an insight into the culture behind the music or the people who make up the scene.

As I said, I am not asking for anyone to suddenly think Grime is some fantastic artform just because I can illustrate it is a different genre on its own from Reggae and Hip Hop. It can still be dull and uninspiring if you want it to be. I don't mind.

Crunk is still presented in EXACTLY the same format as Hip Hop. The performances are the same and the live events are the same. It is a sub genre of hip hop.

Grime music is built around djs playing instrumentals in the mix and the MCs trying to get the biggest reaction they possibly can from the assembled peoples. This is something you do not find in Hip Hop or Reggae anymore.

When you are presented with tracks and compilations you will obviously see far closer similarities to Hip Hop and Reggae from Grime because it is being presented in an identical format to those two other genres. But the same way I do not say Sean Paul is a Hip Hop artist because he raps on a bunch of beats on stage and puts out albums of the stuff because I know about Sting, I know about sound clashing and I know about the version tracks which are the foundations of the genre, I would not accept that grime was hip hop due to the same notable differences in it's foundations and the different goals driving the artists who come up in the scene.

Because Bounty Killer, Sean Paul and Beenie Man wanted to break America with an LP of their vocals did not detract from the roots of what they were doing, even though they were superficially doing no different to what a Hip Hop artists would do.

 

[SIZZLE]

I agree that this is basically an insane discussion.

One can always draw trees of connections between art forms and claim similarities and so on. The people who would discount a new genre's achievements by saying 'it's nothing new, it's just the same as XXXX' are only interested in displaying their own imagined knowledge and rhetorical ability. What do we gain by agreeing or disagreeing that grime is the same as hiphop? It's like having an epic debate and finally concluding that apples are the same as oranges, both being fruits, growing on trees etc. Why do we need to ignore difference, simplify, homogenize? Can't we enjoy watching everything splinter off into more strange niches and sub-developments? Personally it's what keeps me interested.

Hiphop has turned into a commercial behemoth and now must address those needs as well as it's own goals. Grime is delightfully unencumbered by that, yet. That's one of the things that makes it exciting to me. You know that Juelz Santana could/would not put Ice Rink on his LP or even his mixtape now, because it's just too different, and he has something to lose. The fact that Grime is still underground, still poor, still disorganized and full of criminality means that the pure sound of the music and of the lyrics is still more important than how many units it can shift, because it better be since it's not gonna sell more than a few thousand white labels anyway. That, I believe, will change. Even drum n bass, to my ears, bent towards commercialism, homogeneity the same boom chak beat after a few years, even though nobody ever got really rich. I hope the same wont happen with grime but it probably will, and then the people who get tired of that will splinter again and the process will continue. Of course you can't ignore the connections between something like hiphop and grime completely but one MAJOR difference between them is that hiphop is more than 20 years old now and has become a global pop music.

This brings me to another of my pet peeves lately, the concentrated hype-attention on grime and the pressure for some kind of 'results' to equal that inflated hype. If you want to compare to hiphop it took two decades and a LOT of change, figuring out, aesthetic wars, etc to get to it's current place. Be patient please, un-realistically high expectations and the resulting backlash may do more damage than people care to imagine, that is for those who care at all.

 

[joeschmo]

<i>if it's as you say then funk is just a form of jazz, disco is just a form of funk, and techno is just a form of disco</i>

uh, the formal differences are way stronger in all those cases. anyway, whatever.

<i>If you want to compare to hiphop it took two decades and a LOT of change, figuring out, aesthetic wars, etc to get to it's current place.</i>

this is true... but still, rapper's delight was a massive worldwide hit within around two years of people first rapping over beats. and it was made by fakers who definitely weren't around to receive the essence of the scene from the elders at block parties.

 

[petergunn]

<i>
it was made by fakers who definitely weren't around to receive the essence of the scene from the elders at block parties.

not to be a pendant, but the Sugarhill Gang were "around to recieve the essence of the scene from the elders at block parties"... in fact, that's exactly what they were. the point of calling them fakes is that they themselves weren't the scene elders who actually rocked the block parties, yet to most people in the world (outside of the south bronx), they became the face of hip hop. they were at the outside of the scene, mostly thru Big Bank Hank who was good friends with Grandmaster Caz, to the point that Caz let him borrow his rhyme book to record the record. the others def. attended hip hop shows and bought cassetes of live shows. they were fans of the scene, 2nd generation people, not the builders of the scene itself. to follow the analogy thru in an annoyingly pedantic way (hello dessensus!) it would be kinda like if Lady Sovereign becomes bigger than Wiley...

 

[joeschmo]

ok, so maybe i exaggerated slightly for effect (although I might go check my facts... just got done with Can't Stop Won't Stop and that definitely made a big point of Sylvia Robinson and co being interlopers)... however I was going to throw Lady Sovereign in there but refrained cos I didn't want to upset anyone!

ps as regards crunk: to these ears, the distance between crunk and Jay-Z is significantly larger than the distance between crunk and grime...

 

[Poisonous Dart]

The Second Generation ALWAYS becomes bigger!

not to be a pendant, but the Sugarhill Gang were "around to recieve the essence of the scene from the elders at block parties"... in fact, that's exactly what they were. the point of calling them fakes is that they themselves weren't the scene elders who actually rocked the block parties, yet to most people in the world (outside of the south bronx), they became the face of hip hop. they were at the outside of the scene, mostly thru Big Bank Hank who was good friends with Grandmaster Caz, to the point that Caz let him borrow his rhyme book to record the record. the others def. attended hip hop shows and bought cassetes of live shows. they were fans of the scene, 2nd generation people, not the builders of the scene itself. to follow the analogy thru in an annoyingly pedantic way (hello dessensus!) it would be kinda like if Lady Sovereign becomes bigger than Wiley...

The ones that ACTUALLY pave the way NEVER receive the fruits of their labor financially or in acceptance from the masses! Flash is always going to be regarded as a better DJ than Kool Herc and Jazzy Jay was a better DJ than Bambattaa. Spoonie Gee was the center of the Trecherous Three until Kool Moe Dee showed up, etc. After all the the work and grinding and foundations that were laid by the predecessors (Double Trouble, Furious Five, Cold Crush, Fantastic Five, Treacherous Three, etc.), the ones to follow will reap the acceptance and success (Run DMC, LL Cool J, Kurtis Blow, Fat Boys, Fearless 4, etc.). Canada Lee and Paul Robeson were the ones that made it possible for Sidney Poitier and Bill Cosby to have careers..EVERY ONE LOVES Sidney and Bill...Canada and Paul were seen as uppity rabble rousers and trouble makers for refusing to coon and demanding to be treated as equals to Whites...the nerve of those Negroes, eh? LOL.

It only makes sense that Sov or even Kano would be better accepted than someone like Wiley who actually laid the foundation for them, fair? Hell no...but Big Mama Thorton couldn't complain when "Hound Dog" blew up with Elvis instead of her, either. One.

 

[Poisonous Dart]

Sorta

ok, so maybe i exaggerated slightly for effect (although I might go check my facts... just got done with Can't Stop Won't Stop and that definitely made a big point of Sylvia Robinson and co being interlopers)... however I was going to throw Lady Sovereign in there but refrained cos I didn't want to upset anyone!

ps as regards crunk: to these ears, the distance between crunk and Jay-Z is significantly larger than the distance between crunk and grime...

Yes, the difference between Jay-z and Crunk is the difference between well thought out art and barely acceptable noise with guttural screaming for effect and simple, vulgar call and response hooks. The distance between Crunk and Grime is that Hip Hop purists HATE Crunk and they may give Grime a chance. One.

 

[Freakaholic]

The ones that ACTUALLY pave the way NEVER receive the fruits of their labor financially or in acceptance from the masses!

Those that follow, geniuses or not, have the genius of the predecessors to build off of. And the culture the origintors began to accept them. It seems that this is just the way art and culture work.

 

[joeschmo]

<i>Yes, the difference between Jay-z and Crunk is the difference between well thought out art and barely acceptable noise with guttural screaming for effect and simple, vulgar call and response hooks. </i>

You're an idiot. "One"

 

[cooper]

Listening to records does not give you an insight into how that music is presented in a live format. it doesn't give you an insight into the culture behind the music or the people who make up the scene.

Okay, so how about DVDs? I have a pet theory that "live performance" in grime now is more about performing for the rest of your crew / camera and eventual DVD release than actually playing for the crowd.

Whenever grime artists go to NYC now they have somebody filming it, and the whole thing really came to a head for me last summer at the Roll Deep show when they looked... bored? scared? lacking energy, anyway, when facing the crowd... but a videocamera would rise up by the stage and whichever one was nearby would immediately turn and lock onto it, grow more animated, strike rap video poses JUST FOR THE CAMERA. It was like they related better to the camera than the audience.

Granted this was a foreign crowd, but aren't there basically no raves in London now? I keep hearing complaints that they've all been locked off. If your performance space every week is a little box of a radio station I expect you'd feel more comfortable with a video camera than a room full of people.

So if a scene's live format is pirate radio and DVDs I can't think that we get it so much differently over here.

 

[zhao]

so the SOV show was pretty fun but far from the Bees Knees™. way too short, she did about 8 songs, about half of which I hadn't heard before. it was the last date on the tour, I bet she was tired, and felt a little like going through the numbers.

very cool stage presence though, for a kid. she's comfortable and cute but handles herself well. no problems with the soundsystem (I heard one show on this tour totally tanked due to sound issues)

I can only imagine how her 19 year old mind is dealing with all this craziness.

 

[Poisonous Dart]

The truth hurts...

<i>Yes, the difference between Jay-z and Crunk is the difference between well thought out art and barely acceptable noise with guttural screaming for effect and simple, vulgar call and response hooks. </i>

You're an idiot. "One"

I'm an idiot because I think Crunk music sucks? I grew up during the Golden Eras Of Hip Hop (1986-1989 & 1992-1996) listening to Marley Marl, Ced Gee, Paul C, Large Professor, Pete Rock, DJ Premier, Dr. Dre, Prince Paul, The Bomb Squad, SD 50's, Organized Noise, Boogie Down Productions, The Beatnuts, Q-Tip/The Ummah/Grand Negaz/Wizzards, Rick Rubin, Pumpkin, Afrika Bambataa/Arthur Baker, Kurtis Blow, Larry Davis/Orange Krush, Kurtis Mantronik and EPMD beats....I grew up with lyrics by Rakim, KRS One, Kool Moe Dee, Grandmaster Caz, Grandmaster Melle Mel, Big Daddy Kane, Kool G Rap, Just Ice, Kool Keith, Chuck D, Grand Puba, MC Lyte, Queen Latifah and LL Cool J...add to that I grew up in the Northeastern US...now ask yourself.."Why the hell would a person with my background like Crunk music?" Hip hop purists see Crunk as an ignorant/musically inferior version of BAD rap music that is based out of the Memphis, TN to Atlanta, GA area.

Some UK hip hop lovers I know that detest Grime equate UK Hip Hop vs. Grime the way I (and most American Hip Hop fans 25 and over) equate Hip Hop vs. Crunk...they have parallels but since I don't live in the UK/London I can't totally understand that...I KNOW the difference between the mindset/lifestyle between the Northeastern US and the Southern US...I can't do the same with the U.K. Explain to me what this whole "chav" shit means and if people in the UK feel that Hip Hop and Crunk in America are or aren't comparable to UK Hip Hop and Grime...I don't really see it. One.

 

[zhao]

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

with the exception of new mainstream country and new gospel and maybe a few others, it is safe to say that complete dismissal of any style is idiotic.

plus, how can you deny the raw power of crunk and southern hiphop? not to mention the innovative sound design, the brute dexterity of the flows... it is one of the most addictive sounds I know.

 

[shudder]

since I know fuckall about "chav" and reception/perception of UKHH vs. grime in the uk, i won't address the interesting parallel you bring up between Hip Hop vs. Crunk and UKHH vs. grime.

I WILL say that no matter what your hip hop credentials (which clearly massively outstrip mine), you probably shouldn't go around calling music that is pretty important to the culture/identity of large groups of the population of YOUR country "barely acceptable noise with guttural screaming for effect and simple, vulgar call and response hooks".... I mean, it sounds an awful lot like what the boring and bored old folks used to say about hip hop, no?

 

[borderpolice]

plus, how can you deny the raw power of crunk and southern hiphop? not to mention the innovative sound design, the brute dexterity of the flows... it is one of the most addictive sounds I know.

i agree, crunk, using the term broadly, brought an entierly new flow, sense of timing,
and feeling for melody to hiphop. in addition to turning hiphop away from being based
on funky samples to more electronic sounds [this last change has other parents as
well]. and: crunk brought about a change in lyrical content.

to me, crunk saved hiphop.

 

[Poisonous Dart]

Nope....

i agree, crunk, using the term broadly, brought an entierly new flow, sense of timing,
and feeling for melody to hiphop. in addition to turning hiphop away from being based
on funky samples to more electronic sounds [this last change has other parents as
well]. and: crunk brought about a change in lyrical content.

to me, crunk saved hiphop.

If you think that Crunk saved hip hop then you've never heard Hip Hop in your life before. Lyrical content? Songs about sex with strippers, smoking weed, selling crack, beating people up in crowded clubs, shooting people outside of clubs with shotguns and getting oral sex from groupies counts as lyrical content to you? With the cloud of ignorance sweeping over the land and the universal dumbing down of America it's no surprise that people would gravitate to Crunk albums like Lil' Jon and the Eastside Boys and run in fear from Mos Def's "The New Danger"...an intelligent album made by a Black man...with guitars on it? NOOOOO!!! LOL. I'll say it in a way you can understand...Crunk music is bullocks. One.

 

[Poisonous Dart]

Damn it!

since I know fuckall about "chav" and reception/perception of UKHH vs. grime in the uk, i won't address the interesting parallel you bring up between Hip Hop vs. Crunk and UKHH vs. grime.

I WILL say that no matter what your hip hop credentials (which clearly massively outstrip mine), you probably shouldn't go around calling music that is pretty important to the culture/identity of large groups of the population of YOUR country "barely acceptable noise with guttural screaming for effect and simple, vulgar call and response hooks".... I mean, it sounds an awful lot like what the boring and bored old folks used to say about hip hop, no?

I typed up an answer to this that was so long that I lost my connection after the message that my post was 3x too large to post...I have DSL so that is indeed a feat. I lost my entire message, damn! Well, I'll try to summarize:

Crunk isn't important to Hip Hop. It moves units so it's important to record companies. As far as Hip Hop goes, things/artists that are important to it right now aren't popular or generating money. The majority of music consumers are revelling in the ignorance and novelty of a Lil' Jon, Lil' Scrappy or Trillville and buying it up. The Bill O' Reilly's of the world see these artists and think that they are a fair representation of our ENTIRE CULTURE. That, in turn, makes me detest Crunk music. Mos Def and Talib Kweli would have to murder someone to get on a video channel right now, but the Three 6 Mafia's "So Fly" gets played 50 times a day. Whatever. One.

 

[borderpolice]

If you think that Crunk saved hip hop then you've never heard Hip Hop in your life before. Lyrical content? Songs about sex with strippers, smoking weed, selling crack, beating people up in crowded clubs, shooting people outside of clubs with shotguns and getting oral sex from groupies counts as lyrical content to you?

trussme, i've heard hiphop before. regarding lyrics, hiphop has always had it's fair
share of dubious stuff, nothing new in crunk/dirtysouth here. and there's nothing
wrong with talking about sex from an male heterosexual perspective, unencumbed
by the strictures of monogamy and romance. it is fascinating that this is all about
strippers and whores, but that shows that there's something wrong with conventional
sexuality ... anyway what i think is new in crunk is something subtly in focus: while
all the sex depicted is commercial, there's a strong focus on the pleasure of both, the
man and the girl, not just the male. if you look at the metaphores used, the language
but also at the musical style, which borrows heavily from RnB, you see this quite clearly.
"candyshop" is a good example of this. OK, it's not crunk proper, but it's deffo in that
vein.