Best Roots Reggae producers?

[john eden]

Quality not quantity tho!

Stick the Abysinnians in there and stuff like "Let's go to Zion" (errr by somebody Francis?) and the odd deejay track and he's at least got to be in the list...

 

[Grievous Angel]

Strictly speaking Tubby isn't a producer though is he. He's a mixer. He took riddims from all of these producers and mixed them.

Personally I'd never quite defined "producer" as meaning exclusively "rhythm producer" -- I think one could argue this one back and forth...

 

[Woebot]

I think one could argue this one back and forth...

Oh go on! Lets!

 

[john eden]

How does a producer differ from an engineer?

Well you could argue that the producer creates tracks from out of nothing, whereas the engineer simply messes about with already existing source material.

But in reggae, and indeed everywhere, this is a problem because producers asked the musicians to play new versions of old rhythms anyway. Or in some cases just grabbed tapes and then got people to sing over them.

So when scratch lays down a rhythm track he may or may not be a producer, but when someone comes to his studio several years later and he gets them to sing over the riddim, or just does a new dub version of it - is he then an engineer?

This is especially relevant when we bring it up to the 80s/90s and other genres. If a "producer" creates a new work entirely out of samples of existing pieces, does that mean said producer is now "merely" an engineer?

 

[Woebot]

How does a producer differ from an engineer?

Well you could argue that the producer creates tracks from out of nothing, whereas the engineer simply messes about with already existing source material.

But in reggae, and indeed everywhere, this is a problem because producers asked the musicians to play new versions of old rhythms anyway. Or in some cases just grabbed tapes and then got people to sing over them.

So when scratch lays down a rhythm track he may or may not be a producer, but when someone comes to his studio several years later and he gets them to sing over the riddim, or just does a new dub version of it - is he then an engineer?

This is especially relevant when we bring it up to the 80s/90s and other genres. If a "producer" creates a new work entirely out of samples of existing pieces, does that mean said producer is now "merely" an engineer?

John, I admire your theoretical throughness here, but lets face it its a pretty clear distinction. Of course there is a purely terminological problem in that Errol Thompson was Joe Gibbs's "engineer", when of course he was essentially a "producer" and Joe Gibbs was nuttin' but a bumbaclaat businessman.

Within the digital context it is a bit less clear. But as long as there's no swapping of actual digital files (Pro Tools/Cubase projects as opposed to WAVs/AIFFs) then again the distinction is pretty clear. Beyond Steelie and Cleevie's stuff of a few years back, is there any Dancehall producer who GENUINELY produces "mixed dubs" which are listenable as a stand-alone? Lenky? No, sorry, nearly but not quite. This, admittedly, from someone who finds Grime dubs virtually pointless without MCs these days.

 

[Grievous Angel]

Oh go on! Lets!

I shall largely restate Eden's argument in more condescending terms -- this being Dissensus.

(BTW -- can one be "condescending" AND "patronising" at the same time?)

(Have I just found out?)

(Is there a limit to my rhetorical questions?)

I suspect I may be too infected by slack-jawed dance music referentialism to be able to answer properly. But clearly the WOEBOT position -- and I use the term guardedly -- is that reggae producers originate the musical performance. Immediately one can say (as Eden kinda did) that that is recording rather than producing. But it's true that in Tubby's case he was largely "just doing a job" -- musical plumbing if you will. But you don't need to be semiotician to see straight away that many would interpret his role as that of a producer, or perhaps an artist-cum-producer. (YOu see what I mean about me being infected by dance music?)

Eden's wider point I think is that within reggae the economic and musical role of producer is equivalent to being an artist, since they get the copyright and the publishing. Specifically in terms of the role of the "producer" in reggae, he does as Eden points out sometimes buy in others' rhythms as well as versioning his own. So that would indicate that the definition of producer as "rhythm originator" is both limited and inaccurate. For the originators of rhythms, the engineers / recordists who laid the tracks to tape originally, and the artists they employed or partnered with, might have little or nothing to do with the eventual music credited to the end-producer.

To be facile for a moment, reggae created the blueprint of dance music's fluid interpretation of the roles of artist, engineer, writer and producer -- an argument with which we are all too familiar.

Therefore, the dialectical question which I interpret WOEBOT's comments as encapsulating is, to what degree do we ascribe validity to the original producer, artist or engineer's own definition of their role? I.e., if Tubby didn't see himself as a producer, should we agree with him?

My answer is, no.

 

[john eden]

John, I admire your theoretical throughness here, but lets face it its a pretty clear distinction. Of course there is a purely terminological problem in that Errol Thompson was Joe Gibbs's "engineer", when of course he was essentially a "producer" and Joe Gibbs was nuttin' but a bumbaclaat businessman.

Within the digital context it is a bit less clear. But as long as there's no swapping of actual digital files (Pro Tools/Cubase projects as opposed to WAVs/AIFFs) then again the distinction is pretty clear. Beyond Steelie and Cleevie's stuff of a few years back, is there any Dancehall producer who GENUINELY produces "mixed dubs" which are listenable as a stand-alone? Lenky? No, sorry, nearly but not quite. This, admittedly, from someone who finds Grime dubs virtually pointless without MCs these days.

On the ET thing, you are right, but there are countless tales of people being credited as "producer" when all the work was done by other people - what about Duke Reid at Treasure Isle working downstairs in the liquor store and occasionally banging on the ceiling when he didn't like the sounds coming down from the studio?

or Prince Jazzbo who "produced" some of his own singles, but they were actually backing tracks recorded by other producers who gave him the tapes to sing over?

Dunno quite what you mean by Cubase as opposed to WAVs? Are you saying that it matters who the donor of the files is?

As for digital stuff, what about Fatis Burrell (MLK: Xterminator in Dub)? Or the UK stuff like Jah Warrior and Conscious Sounds. There is an interesting distinction right there because Dougie Conscious is mad keen on getting everything done "originally", but Jah Warrior might sample the odd rim shot off a 70s roots tune...

It may not be as clear cut as you think and finding grey areas is always a laugh...

 

[john eden]

Therefore, the dialectical question which I interpret WOEBOT's comments as encapsulating is.

 

[redcrescent]

i haven't really heard much glen brown, bar that one with tubbys on blood and fire, which didnt really floor me. what do people recommend?

Check Sylford Walker & Welton Irie Lamb's Bread International on B&F... both Walker's "Deuteronomy" and Welton Irie's "Ghettoman Corner" are on it. (the "Lamb's Bread" and "Ghettoman Corner" albums proper are also Glen Brown-produced)

Nice to see 'Junjo' Lawes as a new option, but my vote already went for Lee Perry! With so many great producers, maybe a point system like they have in Formula 1 would've been good. You know, 10 pts for #1, 8 for #2, and so on.

 

[Gido]

i think its like this, the producers job is essentially a creative one, whether the engineers job is more technical.

 

[Woebot]

i think its like this, the producers job is essentially a creative one, whether the engineers job is more technical.

i was thinking about it myself over the weekend, and came up with the idea that "producers" as the term is generally used in this context maps onto the term "stable" as in a "stable" of horses.

 

[matt b]

the producers job is essentially a creative one, whether the engineers job is more technical.

as with much of reggae, the truth is blurred and all over the shop- some producers were merely 'creative'- coxsone/ duke reid; others were both creative and technical- lee perry, pablo; and some engineers were creative on top of being technically able- king tubby.

i'd argue that it is as much to do with the means of production rather than the production of sound: producers have record labels, engineers don't (if they get one they become producers- check king tubby's (early) digital output).
phew.

 

[Diggedy Derek]

Hang on, John Eden appears to have voted twice, according to the poll results! For Yabby You and Glen Brown! Some two-face rasta business!

 

[john eden]

Hang on, John Eden appears to have voted twice, according to the poll results! For Yabby You and Glen Brown! Some two-face rasta business!

Hey! I resent that!

I voted for Joe Gibbs as well as them two!

(it's a multiple choice poll...)

 

[matt b]

Hey! I resent that!

I voted for Joe Gibbs as well as them two!

'let the righteous man have multiple choice'

sizzla

 

[Diggedy Derek]

Ha, excellent. Anyway I love Glen Brown the most, but it's got to be Yabby You for me. Just the sheer basicness of it, you can always hear the pieces of his music fitting together (he's pretty similar most of the time isn't he- grim bassline, grinding organ, metronomic drums, rearranged as required), you can hear a music made of hot dust and earth coming together and pulling itself up by it's bootstraps.

 

[Woebot]

(it's a multiple choice poll...)

john's quite right it's a multiple choyce ting.

 

[redcrescent]

john's quite right it's a multiple choyce ting.

But only get to vote once, regardless of the number of choices, right?
If anyone voting has a free slot, check Junjo Lawes for me, please. Such a genius, he should get at least a token vote.
Seems like Striker Lee can't get a foot in at Dissensus so far... If anyone needs convincing, check his stellar production recordhere. Some serious tablets among those.

 

[john eden]

(Brent Dowe's "Down in a Babylon" produced by Lee Perry) That's one of my all-time favourite tunes, so you are right, but I'll often pass over listening to a Perry album in favour of something else these days. It means it will be all the better when I get back into it later...

And sure it enough it was.

Is it fair to say that 70s roots isn't especially hip these days and that dancehall is on the up?

 

[baboon2004]

I'd say my personal favourite was Lloyd Barnes, seeing as how without him basic Channel would never have sounded the same, from what I gather...

Wackies tracks are DEEP...