Breezeblock Dubstep Warz on Radio 1

[Logos]

this is interesting.. I hadn't thought of it like that.

I think by dj in this context you mean the dj who also produces?
do you think djs who don't produce but only play records released by other people contribute anything to the scene (besides being publicity for the artists they play)?

What about the idea that some new ideas come from combining records bought in shops with other records bought in shops, in front of an audience? do ideas only come from the studio? Some of my best musical ideas come from the dancefloor.

What you're describing seems to me to treat the dj performance a passive/receptive experience for an audience.. and kind of a one-way, display experience for a dj.

what do you think?

I think that can happen in techno where DJs have often had the freedom and scope to make complex mixes from lots of different bits of source material. But traditionally in the London/sound system context (hardcore, jungle, 2-step, dubstep/grime) mixes have been short, even in drum and bass. The emphasis is on the drop, pushing the sound system, rewinds etc.

Also part and parcel of these small emerging, pressure cooker scenes (whereas I think techno was internationalised almost immediately with travelling DJs etc) there is a culture of constant forward movement in terms of production ideas...this is obvious, look how quickly we moved along the continium from house to hardcore to jungle then branching back to slower tempos with garage and on to dubstep and grime, all in the space of 15 years. Its a relentlessly progressive, actually pretty modernist culture in a way and that is central to understanding dubplate culture. And in some ways an elite culture but ironically democratic too.

I for one was never bothered about dubplate culture...it makes going out a much more exhilirating.

Interestingly you could argue that for some reason Sunday garage/2-step was devoid of a dubplate culture...

 

[tate]

Also part and parcel of these small emerging, pressure cooker scenes (whereas I think techno was internationalised almost immediately with travelling DJs etc) there is a culture of constant forward movement in terms of production ideas...this is obvious, look how quickly we moved along the continuum from house to hardcore to jungle then branching back to slower tempos with garage and on to dubstep and grime, all in the space of 15 years. Its a relentlessly progressive, actually pretty modernist culture in a way and that is central to understanding dubplate culture. And in some ways an elite culture but ironically democratic too.

An eloquent statement, Logos.

And one that reminds me what a shame it is that drum and bass/jungle was hijacked by dude-mentality dancefloor machismo, so much so that the edits/choppage/Inperspective/Bassbin/Offshore/drumfunk producers are seen as peripheral to the mainstream dnb scene, rather than as the continuation of its aesthetic and spiritual core . . . one need only look at the pernicious influence of dnb distribution companies to see how difficult it is for non-mainstream, non-'wobble' dnb to reach a wider audience today

 

[Blackdown]

I think by dj in this context you mean the dj who also produces?
do you think djs who don't produce but only play records released by other people contribute anything to the scene (besides being publicity for the artists they play)?

What about the idea that some new ideas come from combining records bought in shops with other records bought in shops, in front of an audience? do ideas only come from the studio? Some of my best musical ideas come from the dancefloor.

What you're describing seems to me to treat the dj performance a passive/receptive experience for an audience.. and kind of a one-way, display experience for a dj.

what do you think?

hmm. the key djs who don't produce are still some of the biggest djs in the scene: hatcha, youngsta and joe nice. n type's producing too but he's better known as a dj.

for me these guys are empowered by dubplate culture because they select from the wealth of unreleased music and chose which tracks to back and which tracks to ignore. in fact there's a fierce competition behind the scenes to get into these djs' sets - and competition breeds talent.

this one way experience you describe, you gotta remember that until about 7 months ago dubstep was very obscure. djs playing on Rinse to muted response, clubs full of other producers - it's definitely a one-way vibe. then came a string of off-the-hook DMZ nights, Skepta dropping skream's 'request line' and the Breezeblock Warz...

 

[tox]

On a side note it seems dubstep is spreading its way through the BBC. Anyone hear Gilles P drop some Free Jazz over an untitled Skream track on Radio One, Sunday night? Thats a big sound.

Its kind of a big step for the scene too, although whether you think its in the right direction is another matter. Gilles Peterson can be either viewed as either an eclectic genius or a guru for scene stealing hipsters. I would like to go for the former though, and hopefully this'll help spread the sound around the country/world.

Anyway, there's a link here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/urban/peterson

 

[Tyro]

''On a side note it seems dubstep is spreading its way through the BBC. Anyone hear Gilles P drop some Free Jazz over an untitled Skream track on Radio One, Sunday night? Thats a big sound.

Its kind of a big step for the scene too, although whether you think its in the right direction is another matter. Gilles Peterson can be either viewed as either an eclectic genius or a guru for scene stealing hipsters. I would like to go for the former though, and hopefully this'll help spread the sound around the country/world.''





Giles Peterson is primarily a Jazz DJ and has helped to keep Jazz music in the public eye for the last 20 years or so.In order to do this he plays Jazz along side other [more contemporary] forms in a club environment.I think he does his job very well and like the late John Peel has a good ear for music.I dont think he picks up on stuff [to use a Jazz phrase] simply to be seen as hip.

 

[atomly]

i can totally understand how dubplate culture is frustrating to those who rely on 12" releases to DJ with, but i genuinely think it's healthy for the scene. this means that the djs playing the music have unprecedented control to push forward new ideas. if the djs were relying on 12"s bought in shops there's a much slower turnover of ideas. this way with dubs the sound can evolve on a daily basis as the dj goes home to his studio turns on his equipment, makes a new beat and the road tests it at his next gig.

I don't think people have a frustration with this aspect of dubplate culture-- it comes from their inability to play songs that they like. As a DJ, you basically can't play a song until everybody is sick of it, because if it ever comes out at all it's already been played relentlessly for months or even years by the top DJs. I know this is the lament I always heard on D&B message boards.

The problem for me with "dubplate culture" is that it also gets people caught up in the "upfront selection" mentality where if you don't play brand new shit you shouldn't DJ, which I think is crap. For me a DJ isn't a person who just plays a few hot new tracks sequentially... I come from the whole Detroit/Chicago school of DJing where it's about building big sets and good programming, which I think gets lost in this whole mentality.

That's why it's awesome for me to see somebody like the Surgeon playing dubstep tracks mixed in with old techno, new remixes of old techno, his original tracks, etc... All over the place but really well programmed sets.

 

[Blackdown]

I don't think people have a frustration with this aspect of dubplate culture-- it comes from their inability to play songs that they like. As a DJ, you basically can't play a song until everybody is sick of it, because if it ever comes out at all it's already been played relentlessly for months or even years by the top DJs. I know this is the lament I always heard on D&B message boards.

The problem for me with "dubplate culture" is that it also gets people caught up in the "upfront selection" mentality where if you don't play brand new shit you shouldn't DJ, which I think is crap. For me a DJ isn't a person who just plays a few hot new tracks sequentially... I come from the whole Detroit/Chicago school of DJing where it's about building big sets and good programming, which I think gets lost in this whole mentality.

That's why it's awesome for me to see somebody like the Surgeon playing dubstep tracks mixed in with old techno, new remixes of old techno, his original tracks, etc... All over the place but really well programmed sets.

this question depends massively on where you are. if you're a DJ playing outside of London where to most of your crowd, any dubstep is new, then dubplate sets are harder to argue for.

but when you're playing to a London crowd, where every record you play will have been made by someone in the room, or every released dubstep 12" will be owned by half the room, what's the point of playing released music?

people in dubstep do value good DJing - youngsta, hatcha and joe nice are technically excellent - but there's a shift in the ballance between DJing skills and selection, away from the Chicago/Detroit/generic dance music position, and personally i think it's healthy.

If half the people in your audience have the 12" releases you do and could probably mix them in the order you might chose, then the ability to express yourself by creating a musical vision from unreleased music and then surprising/entertaining people by presenting it to them mixed on dubplate is a higher goal.

 

[bassnation]

people in dubstep do value good DJing - youngsta, hatcha and joe nice are technically excellent - but there's a shift in the ballance between DJing skills and selection, away from the Chicago/Detroit/generic dance music position, and personally i think it's healthy.

good djing has ALWAYS been about selection, whether its house, techno or whatever genre you want to substitute. i don't see any change there to be honest.

i think things will be different when lots of people from all over are making dubstep - wider selection to choose from. not that current crop isn't worth playing, far from it - its just right now it would be impossible to play any of it without sounding like a pale imitation of the fwd originators - making it a barrier of entry, in london at least.

 

[Paul Hotflush]

Entry to the dubstep scene is via production, not DJing. And that's how it should be.

 

[bassnation]

Entry to the dubstep scene is via production, not DJing. And that's how it should be.

its a strength that theres no dividing line between producers and djs in the scene, but i doubt it will stay that way as it continues to gather momentum worldwide.

besides, more djs playing this music and as a result more people listening has got to be a good thing, don't you think?

 

[nomos]

Entry to the dubstep scene is via production, not DJing. And that's how it should be.

These sentences don't make sense. What is "entry into the scene?" What about Joe Nice? Or any number of non-DJ/producer types like Georgie C, Dubway, etc?

 

[Paul Hotflush]

I meant entry as a musical participant, and I should also have said entry to the London dubstep scene. As the scene grows elsewhere it will be DJs who push it, obviously. Although to be honest, I would say enthusiasm goes a long way in this scene. Certainly N-Type and Joe Nice have progressed to a large part because of their boundless enthusiasm for the sound. Obviously they're both talented guys as well.

 

[Grievous Angel]

Joe Nice does his own re-edits though doesn't he?

Also...

I understand the plus points of the dubplate culture but...

... if you make a big tune that everyone wants but it doesn't come out for months, if at all, and then the sound moves on...

... how do you make money? And if you don't make money, how does the scene survive?

I want dubstep artists to make a living, so I can continue to buy their records!

 

[boomnoise]

that's the problem at the moment mr meme

tune made, tune played out, fans of tune created, fans want to buy tune, tune played out some more, fans want tune even more, time goes by... tune released, fans buy tune, tune sells out, other fans still want tune = problem

releases take ages to come out and when they do enough copies aren't pressed for a decent worldwide distribution thus failing to cash in

the supply and demand issue is only going to get bigger, as i see it, as dubstep gets more well know. it's an issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later in my opinion.

dubplate cultures aren't based around making money which is a part of the problem. is simply pressing more records the answer - thoughts mr hotflush?

 

[Paul Hotflush]

On the supply side - more records are being released (2006 will be the busiest year for dubstep releases yet).

On the demand side - sales are rising, but slowly. I'm surprised at how well the Scuba releases have done (as are my distributors!), but I don't really have the data to attempt an analysis of what kind of dubstep tunes are selling better than others (i.e. breaky, dubby etc). On the point of "enough copies aren't pressed for a decent worldwide distribution" it's more because the market isn't there for worldwide distribution: it's very hard to persuade new shops to stock this stuff. When they do, they get to like and people buy it, but the first step is very difficult, which has a lot to do with vinyl export costs but also with record shop staff inertia.

From the label perspective, it would be A LOT easier if every release sold 1000 instead of closer to 500. So really, until more people start buying records you won't see all those dubs making it to the shops.

 

[atomly]

this question depends massively on where you are. if you're a DJ playing outside of London where to most of your crowd, any dubstep is new, then dubplate sets are harder to argue for.

but when you're playing to a London crowd, where every record you play will have been made by someone in the room, or every released dubstep 12" will be owned by half the room, what's the point of playing released music?

people in dubstep do value good DJing - youngsta, hatcha and joe nice are technically excellent - but there's a shift in the ballance between DJing skills and selection, away from the Chicago/Detroit/generic dance music position, and personally i think it's healthy.

If half the people in your audience have the 12" releases you do and could probably mix them in the order you might chose, then the ability to express yourself by creating a musical vision from unreleased music and then surprising/entertaining people by presenting it to them mixed on dubplate is a higher goal.

That's a rather condescending response, to be honest. It's also been a common complaint stateside that UK DNB DJs come to the US and play lame sets because they think that they can get away with it. Thanks to the internet, most people over here know all the new songs just as well as the average UK listener does.

Additionally, it's rather short-sighted to take your approach. This mentality is why genres have a tendency to die out so quickly in the UK. Everybody is constantly obsessed with new music and focused on playing unreleased tracks, so the genre isn't given any room to breathe. It's quite a dis to lump "generic dance music" in with Detroit Techno and Chicago House, which I think are two genres that have done some amazing things and still had amazing longevity. If you can have Juan Atkins, Jeff Mills, Richie Hawtin and Matthew Dear all come out of the same scene over the span of 25 years, something is going well in my book.

I have no problem with DJs playing exclusive tracks, but I think getting caught up in the dubplate culture means that most DJs are playing the same 20 songs and it doesn't really allow them to build as good of a set as having a larger pool to draw from would.

 

[Freakaholic]

That's why it's awesome for me to see somebody like the Surgeon playing dubstep tracks mixed in with old techno, new remixes of old techno, his original tracks, etc... All over the place but really well programmed sets.

When and where did this happen? I caught Surgeon at the Logan Square Aud., but I would've loved to hear him mix in some dubstep with that massive, pounding techno he was throwin down.

 

[Grievous Angel]

On the supply side - more records are being released (2006 will be the busiest year for dubstep releases yet).

Excellent!
On the demand side - sales are rising, but slowly... it would be A LOT easier if every release sold 1000 instead of closer to 500. So really, until more people start buying records you won't see all those dubs making it to the shops.[/QUOTE]
I get the impression that there's quite a lot of pent-up demand for dubstep tunes -- people want to buy the tunes they hear on the radio for a start... but I think that a lot of buyers are put off by the impression that "if they can buy it, it's already out of date"... Then again, you're closer to the sharp end than I am right now...

 

[atomly]

When and where did this happen? I caught Surgeon at the Logan Square Aud., but I would've loved to hear him mix in some dubstep with that massive, pounding techno he was throwin down.

He didn't at that set, it was the next time he came back and played at Spybar.

http://www.atomly.com/blog/archives/200510121014/

 

[ripley]

Entry to the dubstep scene is via production, not DJing. And that's how it should be.

I'm not sure what "entry" into the "scene" means.

but it sounds like as one of the (few) djs who plays dubstep in northern cali, let alone the US, I should just quit now, eh?

Apparently I've got nothing to offer?

So much for all those hot flush records I bought!

good luck with the demand side!