Why Conspiracy Theories?

[sufi]

Yes I think we can all agree that the governmental policies regarding the allocation of resources to science and medicine were racist under apartheid.

I am curious if the ANC's policy was to reallocate the resources towards research into controlling lightning or whether they were more geared towards supporting working class communities through things like sanitation and construction, which coincidentally also require a fair understanding of gravity and Newtonian physics?

I am all for deconolising science but I can't get with the idea that you need to reject the scientific method to do that.

Also:

I'm not drawing an equivalence between the two videos. If some dickhead racists want to remove themselves from a lesson that is fine by me and I am sure a great relief to the staff and other students.

The video isn’t about science, it's about making fun of black people for challenging racism

 

[john eden]

The video isn’t about science, it's about making fun of black people for challenging racism

I completely accept that it could be used to make fun of black people. For me it is more to do with a wider agenda of mocking student politics / safer spaces / postmodernism etc.

We've seen this in this country with various pieces in the right wing press about (for example) a student union official at Goldsmiths tweeting "Kill All White Men".

This is an unfortunate by-product of the liberal left disappearing up its own arse, I'm afraid.

 

[Mr. Tea]

isn’t she objecting to the guy shouting out "that's not true"? Which would be unacceptable, because it's imposing a (your) view that western science trumps all other knowledge. (Have you ever heard of lightning conductors btw? Humans use them to control lightning)

Oh lolz, you got me there!!! Yes I've heard of lightning conductors. That is not what the young woman is talking about, as you well know.

& where does she "basically say" all that? you're actually just making things up!

It's the notion that science is a product of "white" culture and "white" culture only (which is bullshit in itself, as anyone who knows the first thing about the history of science will tell you) and "whiteness" is somehow built into universal laws like the law of gravity. The idea that an African Newton would have discovered some totally different law of gravity. Which is nonsense. There's no such thing as "African gravity" just as there's no such thing as "European gravity".

 

[john eden]

Also, to play these people at their own game, by making that essentialist argument they are actually silencing the all too real (and struggling) black voices in the scientific establishment/community.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The video isn’t about science, it's about making fun of black people for challenging racism

You are free to interpret the video however you wish. I think it's far too important to be reduced to 'making fun', because a huge amount is at stake here. As John intimates, it's more about demonstrating the extent to which left-wing humanities academia has disappeared up its own arse.

And if saying "Science must be abolished and wizards can control lightning" constitutes "challenging racism", then I think we need a new definition of "challenging racism" and probably a new definition of "racism".

 

[luka]

Giant
Alchemical
Manipulation
Event

 

[sufi]

You are free to interpret the video however you wish. I think it's far too important to be reduced to 'making fun', because a huge amount is at stake here. As John intimates, it's more about demonstrating the extent to which left-wing humanities academia has disappeared up its own arse.

that's quite dishonest. if you wanted to talk about science, or the state of left, or any serious point, then why not post a video where there is a serious discussion, not a viral video that has only been shared in bad faith by people who wish to pour scorn on the subject.

I was searching online to find a longer piece where other parts of the debate might be included, all i can find is rightists sharing this excerpt to support their position. Similarly, as Eden says, to the #killwhitemen tweet which was only ever publicised in bad faith,

And if saying "Science must be abolished and wizards can control lightning" constitutes "challenging racism", then I think we need a new definition of "challenging racism" and probably a new definition of "racism".

Luckily, you are the only one saying that

 

[luka]

So what exactly does it mean that for the first time ever and for no good reason the stars in the Republican logo turned upside down in 2000? I have no idea. But I do know that for at least since the Sixties in popular culture the upside down star has been a satanic symbol, indeed the sign of Baphomet in the Church of Satan. And of course we all know what 2000 heralded: the magickal working that was 9-11. The same 9-11 that saw the four prime magickal numbers of Aleister Crowley exhibited front and center: in flights 11, 175, 77, and 93.

http://mcmmadnessnews.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/casting-runes.html

 

[Mr. Tea]

that's quite dishonest. if you wanted to talk about science, or the state of left, or any serious point, then why not post a video where there is a serious discussion, not a viral video that has only been shared in bad faith by people who wish to pour scorn on the subject.

I'm not responsible for the reason any given person has chosen to share that video. If people who are serious about fighting structural racism in academia don't want people to mock what they say then they shouldn't say such obviously risible things.

Similarly, as Eden says, to the #killwhitemen tweet which was only ever publicised in bad faith

I'm trying to think of how anyone could possibly publicize #killallwhitemen in "good faith". It's a line intended to cause an emotional response, and then when it does, the original tweeter can say "wow look at how racist all these white people are, willfully failing to understand the subtle and hilarious irony in my statement that they should all be killed".

Luckily, you are the only one saying that

She says "the whole thing should be scratched off". The most recent thing she'd mentioned was science, in general. How else do you interpret "scratched off"?

 

[luka]

Perhaps related is the fact that circa 2005/2006 and clustered mainly in California, Florida, and Texas, the manifestation of Morgellons began appearing. Symptoms being lesions that never heal, tiny beads of what appear to be sweat emerge except they’re black and tarry, and finally strange, long fibers that pop out of your skin in different colors. After being written off as delusional parasitosis, the National Institutes of Health actually listed Morgellons as a genetically caused disease, specifically due to Chromosome 1 duplication/trisomy of q42 11 Q42 12 in July of 2006. A patient happened to stumble upon this in a search engine exactly one year later, on 7-23-07. One day later, 7-24-07, a family member of the patient called the CDC under the impression that the NIH web page and phone line were to aid Morgellons victims. The CDC rep responded that the web page was a clerical error actually intended for the medical community. As of 7-27-07 all pages were removed from the internet, including all cached copies which were immediately scrubbed from any and all search engines. All of which begs the question, are morgellons sufferers genetic canaries in the coal mine?
What we’re talking about here is what Harlan Ellison would call a Dangerous Vision. The terraforming of an entire species. The “force directed” evolution of the human genome. Most frightening of all, is it possible that those with Morgellons are those whose bodies are genetically rejecting these nano-engineered life forms, while the rest of us are integrating them? Welcome to transhumanism. Welcome to the machine.

http://mcmmadnessnews.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/casting-runes.html

 

[sufi]

I'm not responsible for the reason any given person has chosen to share that video.

I was only referring to your reasons for posting the 2 "entirely parallel" videos, you are responsible for that.

I'm trying to think of how anyone could possibly publicize #killallwhitemen in "good faith". It's a line intended to cause an emotional response, and then when it does, the original tweeter can say "wow look at how racist all these white people are, willfully failing to understand the subtle and hilarious irony in my statement that they should all be killed".

where did she say that or are you making stuff up again?

She says "the whole thing should be scratched off". The most recent thing she'd mentioned was science, in general. How else do you interpret "scratched off"?

certainly not as a serious discussion of racism in science or anywhere else. But that's not what the bit that you misquoted, is it? You paraphrased her to come up with some entirely spurious point that didn’t make sense, then accused her of not making sense!
If i was a lesser debater the words "insane" and "batshit" might flow.

 

[sufi]

sorry Tea, i did mention "gently" pulling you up about the videos, but your inability to face the point straight on has drawn things out somewhat

 

[Mr. Tea]

where did she say that or are you making stuff up again?

I'm paraphrasing. The point being that slogans like that are intended to needle people, so they react in a hostile way, so the slogan's originator can then feel vindicated.

certainly not as a serious discussion of racism in science or anywhere else. But that's not what the bit that you misquoted, is it? You paraphrased her to come up with some entirely spurious point that didn’t make sense, then accused her of not making sense!
If i was a lesser debater the words "insane" and "batshit" might flow.

Hang on, I've lost track now. What bit are you saying I've misquoted?

 

[sufi]

Hang on, I've lost track now. What bit are you saying I've misquoted?

i can see why you're confused, the way you discuss always seems to be to misquuote/paraphrase, then get worked up about the resulting extreme nonsense, you've done it several times with me today!

And if saying "Science must be abolished and wizards can control lightning" constitutes "challenging racism", then I think we need a new definition of "challenging racism" and probably a new definition of "racism".

Luckily, you are the only one saying that

.

 

[droid]

As an expert in Tea's debating style, I have to say that my intellectual dishonesty alert has been mostly silent.

I think the problem here stems for the juxtaposition of the two clips, one of which is clearly racist, the other which has obvious cultural connotations relating to race.

I think this was clumsiness by Tea who was simply trying to make a point about the acceptance of science, rather than about the racial/political implications of either clip.

 

[john eden]

As an expert in Tea's debating style, I have to say that my intellectual dishonesty alert has been mostly silent.

I think the problem here stems for the juxtaposition of the two clips, one of which is clearly racist, the other which has obvious cultural connotations relating to race.

I think this was clumsiness by Tea who was simply trying to make a point about the acceptance of science, rather than about the racial/political implications of either clip.

I agree with this.

I think it's also a reasonably good example of an ultra-rationalist approach failing to deal with nuance. (See also Dawkins etc).

 

[luka]

tea is actually not very rational he just lacks imagination which is a different thing entirely. he works for the brain police.

 

[luka]

i am very rational.

 

[droid]

 

[Mr. Tea]

I think the problem here stems for the juxtaposition of the two clips, one of which is clearly racist, the other which has obvious cultural connotations relating to race.

Yes. The point was not that the white students in the one clip are behaving in an equivalent way to the black student in the other clip. The point was that a current of extreme anti-science and anti-rationality sentiment is found among people on both the right and the left (if we may assume that white students offended by the idea of the human race having evolved in Africa are probably right-wing in some general sense, and a black student talking about "decolonizing science" is probably left-wing in some equally broad sense, which seems reasonable to me).

I think this was clumsiness by Tea who was simply trying to make a point about the acceptance of science, rather than about the racial/political implications of either clip.

I made it quite clear in my original post that I was talking about people's attitudes to science, rather than the specifics of the racial politics in each case.