Why Conspiracy Theories?

[Mr. Tea]

Actually, all this talk of Podesta, 'spirit cooking' and so on, as well as discussion of the 'conspiracy theory mindset', got me thinking today. One of the most prevalent themes in modern conspiracy theories is that of occult or Satanic ritual child sex abuse and/or sacrifice. It's not hard to see why, when you consider the way it combines so many of our deepest phobias and obsessions, along with two absolutely classic conspiracy tropes: the unspeakable depravity of the elite, and infiltration of the top levels of aristocracy/government/big business (to say nothing of the church) by occult practitioners.

Now while the sexual abuse of children is depressingly common, and runs right through society from top to bottom - from Cyril Smith, Nick Fairbairn and Ted Heath (allegedly) to the Asian grooming gangs of Rotherham, Rochdale and so on - verified cases of so-called 'ritual' abuse are extremely rare, and a number of high-profile cases, most infamously in Orkney, have turned out to be completely baseless, and have raised questions about the use of hypnotic interrogation of 'victims' and false memory implantation.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some truly dedicated conspiranauts have hypothesized that completely false Satanic abuse cases have been concocted, propagated and then eventually (after garnering a sufficient level of public attention) allowed to be exposed as total fabrications - precisely for the purpose of discrediting the very idea of 'Satanic abuse'. This brings me back to the conspiracy theory mindset, which tends to build theories that are the exact opposite of falsifiable, in the Popperian sense: any fact that seems to support the existence of a conspiracy is held up as incontrovertible evidence, any absence of evidence where you would expect there to be some is interpreted as evidence of the cover-up, and anything that seems to debunk the theory is evidence of a disinformation scheme, a red herring or 'false flag' of some sort.

 

[luka]

song by B.O.B on how the moon landing was faked.

 

[sufi]

...as entirely parallel to this:


In each case, people are clinging to a comforting myth that can only survive in the hothouse environment of their respective safe space, cossetted from the chill wind of fact, evidence and logic that would destroy them in an instant if they were exposed to it. Academia and intellectual culture (such as it is) in the Anglophone world, and perhaps 'the West' in general, has signed its own death warrant by tolerating and encouraging this madness.

with apologies for taking us back a few pages,
i feel like i should gently call out mr tea on this false equivalence - how is it OK to "entirely parallel" anti-white racism in US with anti-black racism, please?

 

[Mr. Tea]

with apologies for taking us back a few pages,
i feel like i should gently call out mr tea on this false equivalence - how is it OK to "entirely parallel" anti-white racism in US with anti-black racism, please?

I think you've rather misinterpreted my point. I never accused the 'science-must-fall' girl of "anti-white racism" - that would clearly be ridiculous. What she's displaying is an anti-science prejudice of the sort that began with (white) philosophers in Europe and North America in the '60s.

My point was that people can only maintain positions that are either demonstrably untrue (e.g. modern humans didn't evolve in Africa) or batshit insane (e.g. we should collectively abandon science and go back to believing in magic) within 'safe spaces' free from any kind discussion or debate based on logic and evidence.

 

[sufi]

No, you have that A/T:

Anti-white racism in US is the spectre that allows the white guy to walk out of class (I must admit, i didnt get to the end of that video - who is the narrator?)

Anti-black racism (in South Africa I assume from the accents) is what allows you to characterise "'science-must-fall' girl" as "bat-shit insane", for challenging white supremacy.

 

[john eden]

No, you have that A/T:

Anti-white racism in US is the spectre that allows the white guy to walk out of class (I must admit, i didnt get to the end of that video - who is the narrator?)

Anti-black racism (in South Africa I assume from the accents) is what allows you to characterise "'science-must-fall' girl" as "bat-shit insane", for challenging white supremacy.

isn't it equally racist to NOT point out that something someone says is bonkers, just because they are black though?

 

[john eden]

isn't it equally racist to NOT point out that something someone says is bonkers, just because they are black though?

Also can we please contrast the challenge to white supremacy mounted by the ANC with the approach taken in that video?

 

[sufi]

isn't it equally racist to NOT point out that something someone says is bonkers, just because they are black though?

listening again to the video, they are talking about "decolonising science" which is not even unreasonable, let alone insane.

The fact that they set up safe-spaces type rules and then jump on some guy for transgressing them is what got this video shared, since that behaviour is enraging for people who can't cope with having their privilege challenged.

& in any case, it''s not equivalent to a white guy walking out of class citing anti-white discrimination.

She never makes the next point, about how to do decolonised science, which might be entirely constructive for all we know - but applying a scientific approach to traditional beliefs is not "bonkers".

 

[droid]

TBF, I think she did make the point about how to decolonialise science - her answer is to throw it all away and start again.

 

[luka]

“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors, and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

 

[sufi]

Also can we please contrast the challenge to white supremacy mounted by the ANC with the approach taken in that video?

i know almost nothing about that! But I'm glad to find out more - here's some stirring stuff from Mandela back in '93

he science and technology policies of the present government were designed, not in the interest of the nation as a whole, but to serve the racist system of apartheid. Throughout the apartheid era, a substantial amount of our country`s technological resources went into the development of arms to preserve and maintain apartheid. The amount of human and technical resources that went into the building of nuclear weapons is disgraceful. At the peak of government funding, the atomic energy corporation received approximately R980 million per annum. When we contrast the amount of taxpayer money spent on implementing a military technology policy with the enormous basic needs of the majority in our country, the words of former us president Eisenhower come to mind. He said:

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its labourers, the genius of its scientists, the houses of its children"

Military expenditure must be balanced against other needs and priorities. Earlier I mentioned our fellow South Africans who are without electricity, running water, and transportation. When we devote resources to the manufacture of ratels, hippo`s and tanks, they are not available for the manufacture of other goods that our people need, like roads, bridges and hospitals. Our scientists and engineers serving the military industry are not available to work in civilian industries. We are thus robbed of these gifted and talented individuals as they are not available to work on technological innovations that will prepare South Africa to compete internationally.

We must never again allow our nation`s resources, scientists, and engineers to be used to support an ideology by producing weapons of mass destruction. The ANC will abide by the nuclear non proliferation treaty, and we fully support the declaration by the Organisation of African Unity calling for the establishment of the African continent as a nuclear weapons free zone. Our human and technical resources must be used to serve the entire nation.

At this historic moment, as we embark on the exciting journey of nation building and democracy, it is a unique opportunity for society to negotiate a new understanding with scientists and engineers, an understanding based on a shared desire to fulfil social and economic goals.

via http://www.anc.org.za/search/node/science

 

[Mr. Tea]

Anti-black racism (in South Africa I assume from the accents) is what allows you to characterise "'science-must-fall' girl" as "bat-shit insane", for challenging white supremacy.

So the only correct non-racist response is to agree with her just because she's black? :slanted:

(edit: I see JE's already made more or less this point)

If that's what you're saying, then I have to wonder if the words "racist" and "racism" haven't been stretched so far as to cease to be useful terms.

 

[sufi]

TBF, I think she did make the point about how to decolonialise science - her answer is to throw it all away and start again.

yes and everyone laughs, perhaps you are taking things a little more literally than intended,

 

[sufi]

So the only correct non-racist response is to agree with her just because she's black? :slanted:

(edit: I see JE's already made more or less this point)

If that's what you're saying, then I have to wonder if the words "racist" and "racism" haven't been stretched so far as to cease to be useful terms.

don't worry, that's not what i said!

 

[Mr. Tea]

Watch it again. The white(-sounding) guy in the audience points out - reasonably - that it's not possible for human beings to control lightning at will. Maybe he's being rude by not putting his hand up and waiting to be asked to speak, I guess. But the woman chairing the discussion then chastises him and forces him to apologize with the wonderful phrase, "This is a progressive space (!) where anyone can speak!" (er, except him, apparently).

I literally can't think of a more regressive idea than the proposal that we should collectively throw all of science in the bin, wholesale. The young woman is basically saying that there are ways of thinking appropriate to white people, and ways of thinking appropriate to black people. I'm currently reading The Golden Bough and you know, it's funny, James Frazer is all like savages this, savages that in every other sentence - but he was more progressive than that in 1890.

 

[firefinga]

If that's what you're saying, then I have to wonder if the words "racist" and "racism" haven't been stretched so far as to cease to be useful terms.

Pretty much. Racism = to attribute certain qualities to certain "races" - which could also be "positive" racism

 

[Mr. Tea]

don't worry, that's not what i said!

Then can I ask what you meant by:

Anti-black racism (in South Africa I assume from the accents) is what allows you to characterise "'science-must-fall' girl" as "bat-shit insane", for challenging white supremacy.

?

I'd have said the same thing if a white person had said what she's said. Or are you saying that the proposition that there is something inherently racist in Newton's laws constitutes "challenging white supremacy"? Is that what's really holding black South Africans in poverty and oppression - the inverse square law?

 

[sufi]

isn’t she objecting to the guy shouting out "that's not true"? Which would be unacceptable, because it's imposing a (your) view that western science trumps all other knowledge. (Have you ever heard of lightning conductors btw? Humans use them to control lightning)

& where does she "basically say" all that? you're actually just making things up!

I shoulda known better than rising to the bait, but even if it was on topic, i find it impossible to accept this type of false equivalence like this across race lines.

 

[john eden]

i know almost nothing about that! But I'm glad to find out more - here's some stirring stuff from Mandela back in '93

Yes I think we can all agree that the governmental policies regarding the allocation of resources to science and medicine were racist under apartheid.

I am curious if the ANC's policy was to reallocate the resources towards research into controlling lightning or whether they were more geared towards supporting working class communities through things like sanitation and construction, which coincidentally also require a fair understanding of gravity and Newtonian physics?

I am all for deconolising science but I can't get with the idea that you need to reject the scientific method to do that.

Also:

I'm not drawing an equivalence between the two videos. If some dickhead racists want to remove themselves from a lesson that is fine by me and I am sure a great relief to the staff and other students.

 

[sufi]

Then can I ask what you meant by:


?

I'd have said the same thing if a white person had said what she's said. Or are you saying that the proposition that there is something inherently racist in Newton's laws constitutes "challenging white supremacy"? Is that what's really holding black South Africans in poverty and oppression - the inverse square law?

A white person is not coming from the same place, my dear. Africans have been systematically excluded from the science establishment for ever. So yes i'm saying Science is inherently racist, no i'm not saying apples are racist.